Our new Home Theater build...Negatron 2

[OO1]

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[Delicious2]

19 hours ago, Negatron said:

 

As far as the OB the woofer do fire forward through the horn...so this will be to me another way to try the MEH. It might be a total failure as a OB, but I can always add a cabinet to it

 

I meant that the tweeter doesn't fire to the rear..

 

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Negatron said:

 

The speakers are already pushing 200lbs each, and will def be a good amount over 200 with a cabinet. We have constructed this to where we can still take it apart for shipping if we want to, as the horn can be removed from the front baffle. Whe the horn is removed only theb1 side triangle would remain as they are glued with construction adheasive, and the woofer plates attach to them with screws.

Got any pics of the horn with the triangles glued on?  Did you countersink the holes on the driver side to make the depth of the port "appear less" to the woofer as Chris did?

 

 

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I don't see where the EV driver is braced/supported here...?

For some reason I thought I saw somewhere about why you were using different (smaller?) woofers than the Crites 15" Chris used.  Did you already explain that somewhere?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NBPK402]

In pics #2, and 3 (side shot) you can see the triangles. My woofer pads are the size of the woofers. The woofer pads are mounted before the woofers, so you cannot see how the pads are screwed to the triangles that were glued to each side of the horn. I had thought of doing multiple layser of the triangles, but it is too much effort for a little bit of stiffening gain...plus the support for the horn stiffens the cabinet stability already. The horn is supported by the 2 uprights that are angled from the bottom platform and the woofer mounts. There is zero load on the horn even with a 30lb EV driver as the whole horn behind the dual layer MDF baffle , is sandwiched by 3/4" MDF which is in turn is supported by 2 1x3x3/4" pieces of MDF which is screwed to the woofer mounts.

 

I am using the Kappa 15c woofers as they were also recommended by Chris and several others. I bought the woofers right after Chris came out with the MEH, and they have been sitting in their boxes until now. I am planning on making 2 more MEHs in the future for a 5 channel setup.

The woofer mounts are 3/4" MDF. The mounting screws to the triangles were counter sunk so that their would not be any interference to the 15" woofers.

 

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[Delicious2]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:12 PM, Negatron said:

In pics #2, and 3 (side shot) you can see the triangles. My woofer pads are the size of the woofers. The woofer pads are mounted before the woofers, so you cannot see how the pads are screwed to the triangles that were glued to each side of the horn. _{Any pictures of this?  While I like the idea of the woofer mounting pads screwed to the triangles glued to the horn as it eliminates any tapping directly into the horn, I'm skeptical that since those woofer mounting pads AREN'T glued or screwed directly to the  horn that they will vibrate against it. i}I had thought of doing multiple layser of the triangles, but it is too much effort for a little bit of stiffening gain...plus the support for the horn stiffens the cabinet stability already. The horn is supported by the 2 uprights that are angled from the bottom platform and the woofer mounts. There is zero load on the horn even with a 30lb EV driver _{so the driver isn't attached directly to the horn flange but to some kind of intermediary support like on the Klipsch K402 stand?} as the whole horn behind the dual layer MDF baffle , is sandwiched by 3/4" MDF which is in turn is supported by 2 1x3x3/4" pieces of MDF which is screwed to the woofer mounts. _Pictures?

 

I am using the Kappa 15c woofers as they were also recomended by Chris and several others. I bought the woofers right after Chris came out with the MEH, and they have been sitting in their boxes until now. I am planning on making 2 more MEHs in the future for a 5 channel setup.

The woofer mounts are 3/4" MDF. The mounting screws to the triangles were counter sunk so that their would not be any interference to the 15" woofers

 

Any testing done here in OB mode?

[NBPK402]

Here is a pic of the triangle with the woofer pads, and supports removed.

 

2nd pic shows a woofer pad laying in position.

 

The woofer pads are rock solid and are attached to the horn with silicone for now via 6 screws that go into the sides of the glued triangles. Once we have finalized everything and veneered it... I will look at either clay or glue to adhere them. If I glue them I cannot disassemble the horn

 

 

I do not have measurements yet as I am having problems with my windows pc and REW...which gives me sporadic readings.

 

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[OO1]

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[Delicious2]

4 hours ago, Negatron said:

Here is a pic of the triangle with the woofer pads, and supports removed.

 

2nd pic shows a woofer pad laying 8n position.

 

woofer pads are rock solid and are attached to the horn with silicone for now. Once we have finalized everything and veneered it... I will look at either clay or glue to adhere them. If I glue them I cannot disassemble the horn

 

 

I do not have measurements yet as I am having problems with my windows pc and REW...which gives me sporadic readings.

 

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Thanks Ron!  Those pics are helpful.  I can see how the silicon around the horn cutouts would damp vibration.  What silicon compound are you using?  I still don't see how the driver is mounted to the horn.  Is it direct to the flange or to some intermediary support?

[Delicious2]

and what are you using for threaded inserts for the 4 woofer mounting screws?  Any reason not to go to 6 screws or even all 8?

[NBPK402]

WHY ARE THERE HOLES IN THE HORNS ------

They are K402 MEHs. The holes are for the 2 woofers.

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[NBPK402]

Thanks Ron!  Those pics are helpful.  I can see how the silicon around the horn cutouts would damp vibration.  What silicon compound are you using?  I still don't see how the driver is mounted to the horn.  Is it direct to the flange or to some intermediary support?

The horn driver? If so it is attached to the stock mounting. The woofers are screwed to the woofer pads (currently with 4 1/4 20 bolts. Once we get everything veneered and ready for the final assembly I will add 4 wood screws to attach the woofers to the woofer pads. This will mean a total of 8 attachment screws per woofer. We are not doing the wood screws yet as we will be taking them apart at least 1 more time, and wood screws in MDF do not like multiple use.)...which are screwed to the side mounted triangles.

 

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[NBPK402]

Chris is working on my settings for the crossover and the changes in sound are amazing! Chris has awesome skills! I am actually surprised how nice the no cabinet version sounds, though I will still build a cabinet to see how it sounds still.

 

 

[Lbk]

On 6/10/2018 at 10:58 AM, Negatron said:

Does your screen always come down in the same position...so it is always in focus? I ask this as this will be my first non fixed screen.

I bought a use motorize screen, mine has/had limiters that could adjust the up and down location. It was located on the left end cap of the screen. 

 

Make sure your screen is level, my was off about 3/4 of an inch and was noticable,11 foot screen.

 

What are your intial settings for your set up. ( crossover and slope settings if your have them) Are you getting any harshness from the EV's?  Thanks, l'am working on something similar.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Lbk

[NBPK402]

My setup is pretty different than the other 402MEHs... I would ask Chris A to assist you, he is the expert on the k402MEHs.

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[Lbk]

1 minute ago, Negatron said:

My setup is pretty different than the other 402MEHs... I would ask Chris A to assist you, he is the expert on the k402MEHs.

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Ok.

[NBPK402]

Well as usual something goes wrong...

 

After a 3 year long project to build these, I finally get the speakers to the stage where they are ready for tuning. First I have problems with my Windows PC changing to a black screen every few minutes. The only way to stop it was to plug it into the Dune HD Pro 4k players input. I thought everything was good, but I noticed REW only had left and right showing. I blew it off and tried working with it, and Chris started his tuning. At more than one point Chris A suspected a problem with wiring, and I double checked and it all seemed fine. Occasionally I would notice the tones did not seem correct in REW, but we continued on. We got to a point where Chris said the compression drivers could not be brought up to the bass levels...tried various adjustments to no avail. I decided to change the amp gains to try and get the horns up to where it was proper for the balance. Chris sent me another tune to work with, and I thought it looked good after I adjusted the levels, but the levels were way off because I was measuring with the window being 50db...which is of course not good. So effectively I messed up all of Chris's hard work.

 

The next day I go in to REW, and the tone for the bass appears to be the tone for the compression drivers again. I then discover that I have zero bass coming out of the speaker, and the Xilica when the tones are run is hitting 1 LED up from the bottom instead of getting up to the yellow on the LEDs. I then try to change the drivers in Windows 7, and there are no other ones. I then try to do a fresh I stall and now it doesnt even show the audio hooked up in Windows. I have now ordered a new i7 NUC to replace my ASUS mini pc un62. I should hopefully have it up and running in a couple of weeks (I have to wait for it to be shipped to me in Mexico). Hopefully Chris will have the time and be willing to help me get this to sound great.

 

Now of course this is all during the Corona Pandemic, with me having a pacemaker/Defibrilator, Enlarged Heart, Cardiac Sarcoidosis, Asthma, Allergies, and Sleep Apnea (basically I am in poor health from all my previous activities in life). This puts me at the top of the list to die if I get the Corona virus. I stay home 90% of the time, but with the news showing the virus is getting worse finally in Mexico...good chance I am screwed. I get more and more depressed everyday over the current situation. I am hoping I live long enough to be able to enjoy all the time and money invested in my setup. Working on my setup and enjoying it are what keeps me from my depression getting worse.

 

My wife tells me I should not tell people my health condition, but I tell people because I appear to be ok, and I want them to know I am not as I appear to be. As an example...if I catch a cold it lasts for sometimes weeks, and is like a bad flu to me. If I get the flu, it lasts for about a month, and I have trouble breathing even with meds. Last year my allergies got so bad I could only sleep for 2 to 2 1/2 hours a day, and that was only because I passed out. Of course now if I get the flu, it is to dangerous for me to even go to the Dr as I have an even greater risk of getting the Corona virus...so I am in a lose lose situation.

 

Please everyone take this Corona virus seriously and try to survive, and protect yourself, your family, and friends.

 

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[Chris A]

Note that the problems that Ron and I are experiencing presently are definitely not normal.  Out of the many dozens of people that I've helped to dial in their systems, this one and one other have been affected by apparent computer problems.  In the other case, it was apparently the very inexpensive sound card in the computer that was distorting badly.  I would like to point out that the entire signal chain...

1. the program in the computer generating the test sweep signals or serving the digital music files,
2. to the computer's OS and sound card (if used...I use HDMI digital from my computer which avoids conversion to analog until the DAC/preamp unit),
3. DAC or pre/pro and preamplifier analog amplification,
4. the cables carrying analog outputs,
5. DSP crossover,
6. power amplifiers,
7. loudspeaker drivers in their enclosures/horns,
8. room acoustics,
9. the microphone to be digitized by the USB microphone back to the PC again,
10. then lastly the measurement program (REW in this instance)...

...affects the performance of the setup in measurement and playback, just like in a typical hi-fi setup.  Sound cards of hi-fi quality (i.e., putting the hi-fi DACs in the sound card) are typically not an issue.

 

Chris

[NBPK402]

I was by no means implying the problem was with Chris. Chris has bent over backwards to get me up and running. It is just s series of computer problems since I installed the Xilica software, and REW. Murphys Law showed its ugly head and anything that could go wrong did. The last result we had before I messed with trying to get the compression driver up had the setup sounding considerably better. I am positive that if I had not had the failures in Windows we would have a superb sounding setup right now. Ever since we moved to Mexico I have noticed problems with various pieces of equipment...at first I thought it was the electricity, but when we bought our new house ai had voltage stabilizers installed to get the voltage down from 135v, and I have recently noticed the voltage has been dropping down to 115v. I have most of my equipment plugged into UPSs, and my amps are plugged into a APC HT power Center with a voltage booster. I have another UPS coming in so I can use it for my amps. The one I have coming in is a sinewave UPS so hopefully this will work nicely too.

This week I have 50 Hockey pucks arriving for feet for my AV rack, speakers, and amps to rest on. I will disassemble the AV Rack, and then start reassembly. I have a new i7 NUC that is still another week out from delivery (all our mail is now being brought down once a week due to the border restrictions instead of twice a week).

 

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[Delicious2]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:39 AM, Negatron said:

... I have now ordered a new i7 NUC to replace my ASUS mini pc un62. I should hopefully have it up and running in a couple of weeks (I have to wait for it to be shipped to me in Mexico). Hopefully Chris will have the time and be willing to help me get this to sound great. I'm willing and able to help here Ron in addition to Chris.   I'm a Windows desktop support guy professionally and could log in remotely to help you.  Chris has helped me tune 4 different systems with REW, a UMIC usb microphone, Windows laptop and Xilica.

 

... I am hoping I live long enough to be able to enjoy all the time and money invested in my setup. Working on my setup and enjoying it are what keeps me from my depression getting worse.  Stay positive and persevere Ron.  Align your will with whatever spiritual reality you believe in.  What you and soon I are attempting (building a new MEH) is not trivial, but, it is well worth doing!  We get to stand on much larger shoulders like the horn theorists of yore, Tom Danley and yes Chris A. to vault our systems into the 5th dimension 😁.  Depression can only weaken your immune system, so, instead let work on your sound system and enjoyment of the music it produces strengthen you.

 

Please everyone take this Corona virus seriously and try to survive, and protect yourself, your family, and friends.  Amen.

 

 

[NBPK402]

 

Thank you... I am going to wait until I get the new PC, and then give it another try. I will be trying windows 10 this time. I am currently just tired of trying to get windows to work properly. Years ago I used to have zero problems configuring everything in Windows, but now I have forgotten so much. Funny thing is I have looked at some of my posts from around 2000, and some newer, and I have no idea what I was talking about. I was doing so much more than I know how to do anymore... I guess as we get older (and do not do it daily) we forget how do do it anymore. It will only be a couple of more weeks, and this does give me a chance to get the hockey pucks installed, and then reset everything up again.

 

I do have a couple of questions though...

 

1: Should I be working on placement of my left and right speakers... I basically have no good sounding tune now. Currently my speakers are

 

Left ... 43" from the side wall, 48" to the front wall

Right...43" from the side wall, and 48" from the front wall

Center... 31" from the front wall, and centered between the front 2 channels

MLP is 12'5" from center speaker

Open behind MLP to dining room, and kitchen and hallway. I cannot move the MLP back anymore.

 

 

Measurements are from the inside edge of the horn to the front wall (speakers are aimed at the MLP). For the side wall measurement it is from the edge of the horn to the side wall

2: Currently I have gain control on my front 3 channels...what is going to happen when I get my IcePower amp completed...it has no gain control. Will Inhave to start all over again?

 

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[Chris A]

48 minutes ago, Negatron said:

1: Should I be working on placement of my left and right speakers?

It's difficult to hear the difference in room placement until you get the SPL response flattened.  I'd leave them where they are--for the time being. The placement will be influenced by the open baffle nature of the loudspeakers, and that's usually a function of smoothing out the bass response to the degree possible using standoff distances that avoid 1/4 wave cancellations with the walls, floor and ceiling. 

 

51 minutes ago, Negatron said:

2: Currently I have gain control on my front 3 channels...what is going to happen when I get my IcePower amp completed...it has no gain control. Will I have to start all over again?

I think that your problems have been computer related. I assume that you're going to place the ICEpower amplifier on the compression driver channels(?).  In my experience, the gain of the ICEpower 50ASX2 modules has been the same as the Crown D75As, so the task of finding the correct bass bin amplifier gain control setting will be very straightforward.  Remember that your issues currently are that your settings aren't predictable from REW measurements.  This is something that is caused by computer issues, not amplifier issues. When that part is under control, the dialing in process is very easy when changing out amplifiers having different gain.  You still need to take initial measurement(s) to get approximate balance of the channels initially, but the secondary balance using REW measurements to set the Xilica channel gains is usually a one measurement task, i.e., very easy.  This is the way that it should be--relative independence of EQ from swapping out amplifiers (except amplifiers having high output impedance--like SETs).  Have patience, and faith.  It will work out.  Mark is right about his comments in this area.  Just take it one at a time.

 

It took me a while to figure out how to dial in loudspeakers, starting from zero.  My purpose is to help others avoid having to go through a long discovery and learning process in order to get good sound.  You're almost there.

 

Chris