Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Plus, they have an entire network in place which manages the status quo. This is what qualified people do. This is why we aren't falling off a precipice in the annals of global history as some would have us fear. (Heavy sigh...} You talk in false generalities because you have no way of knowing what is happening under the radar right now. You don't keep up with Foreign Policy or Middle East religious affairs and are happy living as an American in the status quo. You may be right but I think the dynamics are changing globally that will change our daily lives in our lifetime and not just a generational shift....On that note, I'm not saying all is lost and with the right "qualified people" in place things can get back on track. That's my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: You may be right but I think the dynamics are changing globally that will change our daily lives in our lifetime and not just a generational shift The dynamics of globalism have been changing ever since I can remember. Nixon opened trade with China. Do you think our empire is shrinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: If Facebook becomes the de facto arbiter of what is unreliable news, Facebook, itself, will devolve into a propaganda machine. We seem to be saying the same thing but you are taking it to the extreme. What facebook now does on it's shared known media outlets is post a historical disclaimer from Wikipedia. As you mentioned, there will still be people who subscribe to disproven propaganda distributers but those are more easily recognized...Btw, Gilbert asked why I left the FB group--One reason was that one of the 3 people posting said he didn't believe any news sources I would bring to the table yet he kept talking about an outlandish McCain conspiracy theory that had been debunked (this was after I pointed out he voted for him and he said the reasoning was that he hoped "that thing in his head would kill him and we would have the first woman POTUSA). Hey, Jeff--Where we also agree is that people will believe what they wanna believe but if they can't carry on a civil discussion then those aren't the ones I no longer want to try and convince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Do you think our empire is shrinking? I don't think in those terms but our influence definitely is. China is building up their diplomatic community while we are shrinking ours. Russia is now almost a seemingly equal partner to us when dealing with foreign advisories and partners alike. When you rip up treaties and go against historical norms you will lose allies in the process--That is what claiming to be a Nationalist does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said: We seem to be saying the same thing but you are taking it to the extreme. What facebook now does on it's shared known media outlets is post a historical disclaimer from Wikipedia. As you mentioned, there will still be people who subscribe to disproven propaganda distributers but those are more easily recognized... We're getting very close to being on the same page. I don't begrudge FB's effort to put in little tags to credit/discredit sources if they want. If they go too far with it, people will call them out on it and leave if FB doesn't correct it. As far as making fake news more easy to recognize, we are still just a smidge off from each other. The people who enjoy it the most don't want to know it's fake. That's the whole point. That's why I think this stuff will find new forms as time progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: 10 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Do you think our empire is shrinking? I don't think in those terms but our influence definitely is. China is building up their diplomatic community while we are shrinking ours. Russia is now almost a seemingly equal partner to us when dealing with foreign advisories and partners alike. I disagree that China and Russia are anywhere close to our stature on the world's stage. That said, I don't fear them having significant global influence. Do you? If so, what is it about their societies that makes you fear they could spread their control around the world? Do you fear communism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: I see people lopping on fake news atop of suspicion - getting the opponents in a whirlwind of a tizzy. The only thing left to do is to resolve it once and for all with... yep... an investigation by an impartial special prosecutor. Gotta make it "official," you know. Much ado about nothing. The only thing we learned is everyone's a criminal, and a fishing expedition can expose your crimes. But we knew that, too. I desperately don't want this thread shut down and suffice it to say when actual reports are written or charges are filed I would like to revisit this issue. 22 minutes ago, T2K said: The catalyst for 'Fake News' was first noted in the 1940's, as far as I can determine. Insofar as when "Fake News" was first used in the context we are discussing now was when several Administration Intelligence Officials were appearing before congress in January 2017 talking about what they were seeing come across their wires and didn't understand why and where it was coming from. Of course, now it's been coined to mean several different things (some of which are the opposite of what fact-based journalism is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: Of course, now it's been coined to mean several different things (some of which are the opposite of what fact-based journalism is) Right. It's sort of a pretense that we are discovering something new all the time. Let's put this into perspective. Anyone ever hear the story that the earth and all of life was created in 7 days? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: I disagree that China and Russia are anywhere close to our stature on the world's stage. Then study how many diplomats are in meeting with leaders from both China and the USA as well as how many American Ambassadorships are open right now. If you want me to post some links I can but would rather you look it up yourself. 8 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: If so, what is it about their societies that makes you fear they could spread their control around the world? Do you fear communism? Russia has been gaining ground in the Middle East and have a natural ally against us with China on global affairs. No I don't fear communism but look at how much of our debt they bought up and how much business we do with them? Then consider what I said above them doing in competition with us in other countries--We are losing ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said: Russia has been gaining ground in the Middle East and have a natural ally against us with China on global affairs. Yes, but Russia cannot buy as much Chinese products as we can. Therefore, check-mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Right. It's sort of a pretense that we are discovering something new all the time. No. It's that it has become a political meme that no longer means what you would think it would mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: 8 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Right. It's sort of a pretense that we are discovering something new all the time. No. It's that it has become a political meme that no longer means what you would think it would mean. All I'm saying is fake news has been going on for 1,000's of years. Actually, I am sure it happened by the time people began using language. We are just prone to living a life full of it because nobody has time or access to fact check everything. That's the way it goes... This doesn't mean we just throw up our hands and forget it. Like I said, debunking it is an organic process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, Jeff Matthews said: Yes, but Russia cannot buy as much Chinese produce as we can. Therefore, check-mate! You aren't considering your argument that "things change." They are investing considerably in Africa and are more involved in the Middle East and Europe now. IOW, they seem to be playing the long game, whereas we are hoping to coast on our victories--9/11 taught me that Reality was changing once again and being the most powerful nation in the world had it's limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, Jeff Matthews said: All I'm saying is fake news has been going on for 1,000's of years. And I am saying the person now claiming that CNN, The Mueller Investigation, and other stories he doesn't like has become "Fake News," and those don't actually fit the historical description... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said: 5 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Yes, but Russia cannot buy as much Chinese produce as we can. Therefore, check-mate! You aren't considering your argument that "things change." They are investing considerably in Africa and are more involved in the Middle East and Europe now. IOW, they seem to be playing the long game, whereas we are hoping to coast on our victories--9/11 taught me that Reality was changing once again and being the most powerful nation in the world had it's limitations. Maybe. However, I have faith that freedom and enterprise will continue to prevail over authoritarianism. I think these are necessary components to world dominance. I might be wrong, but that's the way I feel - probably due to my delusion that there is such a thing as "American excellence." I don't mean aptitude. I mean its culture of freedom and enterprise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, Zen Traveler said: And I am saying the person now claiming that CNN, The Mueller Investigation, and other stories he doesn't like has become "Fake News," and those don't actually fit the historical description... Now, you are just losing control over your own argument. Fake news is everywhere. That doesn't mean everything you read is fake. However, it means if you want to find fake news about anything - including the investigation - you will not have to go far. There is plenty of fake news woven into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Zen Traveler said: Did you watch the documentary? What you describe above is old school and isn't what was presented in Frontline's piece. Having followed this topic since prior to the election will also suggest reading up on some of the links provided earlier in the thread dealing with Cambridge Analytica and others. Honestly, some of that would be hard to get into without appearing political but there is a lot of information out there along with indictments and others coming...Stay tuned. Yes, I have watched the Frontline program under discussion. Been a big supporter of our local PBS station for over 20 years - financially, as a board member (and past board chair) and other volunteer activities. I believe that PBS is closer to the center (albeit tilting left on certain programming and slightly right on others) and I trust their accuracy more than any other broadcast news organization. Zen - I don't know how old you are but I have been very politically active since the 1964 presidential election and am keenly aware of how news cycles and news outlets are used to manipulate and direct the voting public. Both parties employ these techniques. What is going in today is nothing new. What is new is that the technology to deliver the propaganda has gotten orders of magnitude more efficient and effective. Couple that with an increasing degree of mental laziness where the consumers of said propaganda seem to disconnect their internal "BS Detectors" as long as the propaganda reinforces their preconceived biases and the technology becomes even more effective. Government censorship is not the answer. Never is in a free society. Scepticism is good. One of these days, hopefully, critical thinking will be taught in schools again and people will not be so easily influenced. Just my opinion..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 52 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said: Scepticism is good. One of these days, hopefully, critical thinking will be taught in schools again and people will not be so easily influenced. To some extent, you are correct. However, I see a slightly different angle. I like to keep up with news and issues to some extent, but there is a never-ending supply of it from everywhere. You can't fact-check everything. That pretty much leaves you knowing you can't be the arbiter of truth for everything, which doesn't make you gullible so much as ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jeff Matthews said: To some extent, you are correct. However, I see a slightly different angle. I like to keep up with news and issues to some extent, but there is a never-ending supply of it from everywhere. You can't fact-check everything. That pretty much leaves you knowing you can't be the arbiter of truth for everything, which doesn't make you gullible so much as ignorant. Appreciate the perspective. For me, the difficult part is deciding upfront which sources are predominantly accurate and worthy of my focus. Where I see the intellectual "laziness" in today's media consumers is in the selection of news sources predominantly because that source reinforces personal biases. Seems that lots of folks are so insecure in their beliefs that simply asking them to explain their position using facts and stats is perceived as an attack. Too much information taken at face value without healthy doses of skepticism and research make it all too easy for the propagandists to shape opinion to their ends. The reliance on facebook and twitter as primary news sources makes the whole thing all too easy. You won't find me using either one. Just my opinion..... Edit for clarity: I am not picking on one party or the other, left or right. My comments apply to all of the above. Just my opinion. Edited November 25, 2018 by TubeHiFiNut 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 5 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said: 5 hours ago, Zen Traveler said: And I am saying the person now claiming that CNN, The Mueller Investigation, and other stories he doesn't like has become "Fake News," and those don't actually fit the historical description... Now, you are just losing control over your own argument. Fake news is everywhere. That doesn't mean everything you read is fake. What? There is only one person who keeps up bringing up the term "Fake News," on a daily basis for the last year and what he describes isn't fake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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