Let’s say you wanted to build a new CF-4

[jwgorman]

I am considering building a super CF-4.  I’m thinking similar size and performance and to the extent possible perhaps improving performance. 

I have access to a cabinet maker with cnc saws so I think the cabinet part would be relatively easy. At least for me. 

The Ciarre HW32s look sort of interesting as do the Faital Pro 144 or 146s on the Faital horn. I have no experience with the Ciarre drivers though. I just threw those out  there as something that might work.  Maybe someone else has thought about this. And I know there are some people who are very knowledgeable about the CF Epic series. 

 

[pzannucci]

The hw321's are what were being used as a replacement for the KLF-30 so should be good for the output.  Need to squeeze the crossover low enough to do some management in the crossover to avoid problems with that rise at 1k and peak.at 2k.

I have the Faital HF10AK on a set of 511s crossed around 800hz (little low but not pro use) to two Focal 13v 7511 woofers.  Works very well, very clean.  Crossover just needs to be managed appropriately due to similar woofer peaks.

[pzannucci]

Another thing is that in an MTM configuration (WTW), you have to pay close attention to distance to center for the crossover and height of horn since any up and down off center or incorrect crossover point to distance can create nulls.

[avguytx]

It's not so much a "new CF-4" as it is just a big 'ol D'Appolito design.  I always liked the sound of that design when done correctly.  Especially the CF-3's I had.

[jwgorman]

Maybe I should have called it Big D’Appolito. 

2 hours ago, pzannucci said:

Another thing is that in an MTM configuration (WTW), you have to pay close attention to distance to center for the crossover and height of horn since any up and down off center or incorrect crossover point to distance can create nulls.

Yes.  This is where the heavy lifting comes in. I can cross the HF146/Faital horn at 700HZ and I can use a calculator to tune the box and come up with a generic 3rd order x-over, but I forsee a lot of trial and error. Unless I went electronic and established a baseline that way I suppose. I’m out of my element with this part.

[pzannucci]

Yes, I find that reasonable priced drivers (as PWK did) can sound good if the implementation and crossover are designed appropriately.  Great drivers are just icing on the cake.

 

[Shiva]

10 hours ago, jwgorman said:

I am considering building a super CF-4.  I’m thinking similar size and performance and to the extent possible perhaps improving performance. 

I have access to a cabinet maker with cnc saws so I think the cabinet part would be relatively easy. At least for me. 

The Ciarre HW32s look sort of interesting as do the Faital Pro 144 or 146s on the Faital horn. I have no experience with the Ciarre drivers though. I just threw those out  there as something that might work.  Maybe someone else has thought about this. And I know there are some people who are very knowledgeable about the CF Epic series. 

 

If you want to build a better Epic,  take a look at what Jeff at JTR speakers is doing with his Epic copies.   His 215-rm, same basic footprint as the CF4's, but with 15" drivers and made into a 3 way, using a coaxial center.  

 

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/noesis-215rm.html

[wvu80]

27 minutes ago, jwgorman said:

Maybe I should have called it Big D’Appolito. 

Yes.  This is where the heavy lifting comes in. I can cross the HF146/Faital horn at 700HZ and I can use a calculator to tune the box and come up with a generic 3rd order x-over, but I forsee a lot of trial and error. Unless I went electronic and established a baseline that way I suppose. I’m out of my element with this part.

I am out of town until Tuesday. If you have a little time to wait I think I have a CF-4 XO. If I can find it I’ll send it to you. It might make a good test bed. I like your idea. 

 

I think the CF-4 crosses at 1500 Hz, maybe 1200. It will be a few days but I’ll check. 

[jwgorman]

15 minutes ago, Shiva said:

If you want to build a better Epic,  take a look at what Jeff at JTR speakers is doing with his Epic copies.   His 215-rm, same basic footprint as the CF4's, but with 15" drivers and made into a 3 way, using a coaxial center.  

 

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/noesis-215rm.html

I’ve never seen them before but man they look badass. That’s really cool. I’m thinking about a constraint of around $2k for the pair for my project. Plus Scotch for my friend who makes perfect cabinets. 

[Shiva]

37 minutes ago, jwgorman said:

I’ve never seen them before but man they look badass. That’s really cool. I’m thinking about a constraint of around $2k for the pair for my project. Plus Scotch for my friend who makes perfect cabinets. 

Though that is a 3 way, he also has some speakers that are two way, like the CF4.  His drivers are from a company called BMS.  Also, notice that his speakers can handle 2000 watts, so you can crank them without worry. I'd call that badass, also.👍

[pzannucci]

55 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I am out of town until Tuesday. If you have a little time to wait I think I have a CF-4 XO. If I can find it I’ll send it to you. It might make a good test bed. I like your idea. 

 

I think the CF-4 crosses at 1500 Hz, maybe 1200. It will be a few days but I’ll check. 

The lower you can get the crossover, the better the integration in a true D'Appolito configuration as it has specifics of crossover frequency (size of the wavelength) and the position of the drivers to allow for timing consideration of the wave from each driver.

[jwgorman]

1 minute ago, pzannucci said:

The lower you can get the crossover, the better the integration in a true D'Appolito configuration as it has specifics of crossover frequency (size of the wavelength) and the position of the drivers to allow for timing consideration of the wave from each driver.

Yes that makes sense. If I went with the Faital 142 horn, they recommend 800HZ as the crossover freq. I know the Cornscala D crosses this horn lower than that. Even crossed at 700HZ I could get the HW321’s 2k spike heavily attenuated with a 3rd order x-over. 

Can Roy be bribed with Scotch? Asking for a friend. 

[Shiva]

The crossover point for the Epic CF 3 and 4 is 1500hz.

[pzannucci]

Start from scratch!!!!!!!

[moray james]

do you really like the D’Appolito configuration? Personally I don't because it only works from the centre sweet spot and by the time you are at the end of the couch it gets messed up. I much prefer a WWT configuration as used in the KG series and most other speakers. Further a larger cabinet is going to permit deeper response which would be nice. I agree with Peter Z. start from scratch and also would add that the larger the horn you use the better. What ever you do have fun.

[jwgorman]

7 minutes ago, moray james said:

do you really like the D’Appolito configuration? Personally I don't because it only works from the centre sweet spot and by the time you are at the end of the couch it gets messed up. I much prefer a WWT configuration as used in the KG series and most other speakers. Further a larger cabinet is going to permit deeper response which would be nice. I agree with Peter Z. start from scratch and also would add that the larger the horn you use the better. What ever you do have fun.

To be fair I’ve not spent much time with the WWT configuration. My experience with CF-4s was very positive. Driven by decent Luxman SS gear they had a smooth and unique klipsch voice and they had really good “audiophile” (I’m holding my pinky out) imaging. I attributed what I was hearing with D’Appolito as I’m a Hertiage guy. But that is really my only data point with that config.  

I was using the CF-4 as a reference and I can certainly add volume to the cabinet to make the F3 lower and I can brace the daylights out of the cabinet too. The goal is to remake a unique Klipsch design and improve where feasible.  

But now I have to consider WWT... dang it 

Thanks for the input you guys. 

[jwgorman]

36 minutes ago, Shiva said:

The crossover point for the Epic CF 3 and 4 is 1500hz.

Roger. Is there a downside to using a 1.4” driver and larger horn? And with the larger horn/driver moving the xover point lower? 

[wvu80]

49 minutes ago, pzannucci said:

The lower you can get the crossover, the better the integration in a true D'Appolito configuration as it has specifics of crossover frequency (size of the wavelength) and the position of the drivers to allow for timing consideration of the wave from each driver.

Agree. The other thing I’ve always liked about the epic series is not just the MTM design, but high-quality compression drivers being able to handle a wide range of frequencies from mid to high. 

 

[wvu80]

4 minutes ago, jwgorman said:

Roger. Is there a downside to using a 1.4” driver and larger horn? And with the larger horn/driver moving the xover point lower? 

 I think a K 63 mid Driver has a 2 inch diaphragm and 1 inch throat. Going to a 1.4 inch driver I don’t think would be any problem at all, even a 1.75 inch driver, the latter is what the new Klipsch reference series uses. 

[pzannucci]

11 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 I think a K 63 mid Driver has a 2 inch diaphragm and 1 inch throat. Going to a 1.4 inch driver I don’t think would be any problem at all, even a 1.75 inch driver, the latter is what the new Klipsch reference series uses. 

Likely the Faital is a 2" diaphragm with a 1.4 exit . May not have as good of highs which may require a little eq in the crossover to add some sparkle.  One of the reasons I stayed with the H10Ak, though it all comes down to driver and horn match.