La Scala crossover upgrades-ALK network-bass driver

[Curmudgeon]

This thread is starting to look like a typical homeowner's association, which isn't good by any means. Sharing knowledge is what makes a successful forum and the Klipsch forum is one of the best out there due to the varied levels and types of expertise of its members. There are some really good people here and if they're a little opinionated - so what. There are already too many people in this country working the PC angle and Randy' inference that AA's rules apply here is wrong. Klipsch makes the rules here and so far everyone seems to be staying within them, I'm sure that if the line is crossed a moderator will step in. What I don't want to see is this spiral downhill to the point that Klipsch DOES have to intervene.

Here's my impressions:

Mobile is very knowledgeable and also very opinionated, but at least he takes the time to post and to help people out. At least his posts aren't boring. I lurk more than I post (which is no excuse) and wish I had more time available for posting, but I don't. If you ask for help in a public forum don't be thin-skinned about it, you may not like the answer but at least it gives one a different perspective. Just remember how much the help cost you - try calling Microsoft or the like for info without your credit card number handy.

Al K is extremely generous with his time and expertise, and the last time I checked there were no pop-ups on this site promoting ALK crossovers. Anyone who takes the time to design a network and give people a choice whether to buy one or build one from his FREE schematic is OK in my book. Like ALL audio components, what sounds better is subjective based on the listener and the listening environment. Again, if Klipsch feels it's financial toes are being stepped on I'm sure they will contact Al to let him know.

Randy is no dummy and I've enjoyed his posts but I think he's off the mark on this one. If this forum works by policing itself it is far better off than having to have heavy-handed moderators enforce Draconian rules along the lines of a public school zero-tolerance mindset. For example, when the forum software was switched and the idiotic naughty-word censoring software kicked in. Do we really want big brother dissecting every post?

There's others on this forum (too many to name) besides the aforementioned people that are a great source of knowledge to me and have influenced some of my buying decisions. If there's a few flames here and there oh well, it keeps the forum from reading like a technical journal. I would not have even considered making a move into tube components if it were not for the valued uncensored opinions of those on this board. Please keep this board free of any rules that would make people hesitant to post here! Now it's time to jump off the soap box before they make a rule about posts that induce unconsciousness.

AD

[Al Klappenberger]

Everybody,

This thread has turned into a "p___ing contest" between me and several others

who think that they know more than I do about my specialty. It STINKS! I get

tired of taking the "high road" and allowing it to happen. I say if you don't

know, keep out! Brennan has challenged me on a subject that has nothing to do

with this thread and that he knows very little about. Blast it, I have taught

the subject of impedance in an electricity course at a local community college

night class and will be glad to write a paper on the subject to post here. First

though, I want to see Brennan try it! I challenge him to do it! A person who

posts such a challenge must be ready to do it himself and I am! When he admits

he can't, I will do it! If enough people ask for it, I will do it anyhow and

email it to them.

To the moderator if this forum: If this is stepping over the line, say so and I

will stop. Otherwise I repeat the challenges:

Brennan: Show me you understand impedance including the use of the "j" operator

and in Polar form. Show me how the Pythagorean theorem applies. Explain the

voltage and current relationships in reactance and why. I will gladly do it, can

you? If your intention was to get my goat with this, you have done it!

Randy: Show us the network you built from my design. Mine is clearly posted for

all to see!

GGRRRrrrr.

Al K.

[TBrennan]

AL--Your outraged response to criticism is typical of the autodidact. I thought your speciality was microwave ovens or something like that. I know it isn't loudspeakers.

No doubt you understand impedance much more profoundly than I do but you know damn well you've still alot to learn about how loudspeakers work. When you undertook the promotion of your wares on this site you were ignorant of some pretty basic notions but as I said you've learned alot, that's a credit to you. I don't know what you're all steamed-up about. I think you're a grudge holder.

[Poleelop]

This discussion needs some impedance.

[TBrennan]

Poleelop---Indeed, I will desist.

[Curmudgeon]

Ah.....I'd like to have an argument, please.

Certainly, Sir. Have you been here before?

No, I haven't. This is my first time.

I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Well, what is the cost?

Well, it's one pound for a five-minute argument but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.

Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment. Mr. DeBakey is free but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ah yes, try Mr. Barnard, Room 12.

Thank you.

[Al Klappenberger]

Brennan,

I have NEVER claimed to be a loudspeaker designer. This tells me that you think

you ARE! The fact that you brought up another point that makes no sense is no

surprise. Yes, I know more about impedance than you do because you know next to

nothing about it. Why did you bring the subject of impedance up in the first

place? You wanted to know when I learned that it changes with frequency? I

learned it long before I got my first ham radio license (Novice) which was when

I was 13 years old and in elementary school. Now I am 55. The formula for

inductive reactance is Xl = 2 * Pi * F * L. Notice the "F". That equation is

part of the study material for the license and the F stands for frequency. When

did you learn it?

Yes, I have learned something recently, it is that you should stick to your

place as the forum Altec / JBL historian. It's all you know, except how to

insult people. If you think I am here to sell networks then you are simply wrong

again. But you are entitled to be wrong. If you think I should be removed from

this forum for advertising my networks here, you may contact Klipsch and

complain. You are not entitled to make that decision. Klipsch is!

Al K.

P.S. .. I do realize how stupid this is getting!

[Randy Bey]

Al, I will concede that I don't know as much as you about your specialty, if you define your specialty as the ALK crossover. I also agree that I was unaware of changes to your original design, and that those changes may have an impact on the end product. It surely must be very hard to 'voice' crossovers without the benefit of having the speakers to test!

If you want to expose me to public ridicule, you can post the pictures of my ALK version. I looked for the images, but couldn't find them. It was three years ago now, after all. I did find your comment "Nice job!" in reply to the picture. I guess you were being polite then and no longer care to be polite.

Finally, I am a believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". My objective, way back when, was to address a 'broken' aspect of the AA crossover, which, if you may remember, was a 10dB bump around 5-6K in the in-room freq. response. I even sent my AA's to Klipsch for testing. Their tests showed an overlap between the squawker output and the tweeter output, around 5-6K, but they also said that this was normal operating behavior.

The ALK did nothing to ameliorate that bump.

Dennis' suggestion to raise the 2uF tweeter cap to 6uF produced an acceptable smoothing of the response curves hump. I am still amazed that that did not change the crossover point, but rather some other attribute of the tweeter response.

I have not revisited the crossover issues until recently.

I am more interested than ever in setting up a Klipsch A network, as I have all the parts in my AAs to do so. If it presents well, I would then get the expensive (oil) caps and high quality coils, etc. to do the job right. The seductive quality of its simplicity is what floats my boat. Here I am sure you disagree, but then we are two different people. For example I would have NEVER gotten rid of the Marantz 8B that you got from your father.

I also don't think that the AA rules need apply here; I agree they are too stringent and are designed for a site with company sponsorship. No one need agree to any of those rules just because I say so. But I also don't think that Klipsch monitors these forums for content at all. I think they put their robo-censor in, and washed their hands of the whole business.

[Al Klappenberger]

Randy,

About your pictures, I have them but I don't consider it my place to post them.

If that's going to happen, you will have to do it. I will keep hounding you to

do it only until you realize that the parts were not as good as you have

insisted. Yes, I WAS being polite back then. The reason is that I have seen many

"homebrew items" built over the years by people with skill levels ranging from

school-boy level to professional. I make allowances for what I figure a person's

background will allow. You are not an electronics technician and it was

basically what I expected. It was a good job for someone who doesn't have much

experience building stuff like that. The big problem with them was the parts

quality and I have come to realize more now than then how important that is. At

the time, I had hoped you would send them to me so that I could test the

response using those parts and maybe find a wiring error or something obvious

that would explain why they didn't sound right to you.

As to the AA network, it HAS NO crossover between squawker and tweeter. It

simply has a filter to roll the tweeter off below 6000 Hz and depends on the K55

driver cutting off at 6000Hz by itself to compete the transition. That means

both the squawker and tweeter at receiving power above 6000 Hz. It works, I just

don't like that. It's a way of making the most using the least number of parts.

That's something all manufacturers must do.

Things are very often not what they seem to be. The 5-6 Khz area you mention

should not have been caused by the 2 uFd output cap. There is a peak at around

7000 Hz in the tweeter filter of the "AA", but it's only a fraction of a dB. I

suspect something else was going on but I don't know what. If it was, it would

be common to all Khonrs since. That is where instruments come into the picture.

The higher output cap makes the tweeter filter operate more correctly from a

voltage source like an amplifier. It smooths the little passband peak and

reduces the loss by a little less than 1 dB. It also makes the filter slope less

sharp. The mystery of the real cause of the 5-6 kHz anomaly is one I would like

to see solved.

Like I sad earlier, the A network represents a school of thinking that has

merit. For Khorns in particular, this is fine because of the drivers natural

roll off. The actual crossover transition rates are actually higher then 6 dB /

octave. I just believe it can be made constant impedance with the addition of

just a few more parts, so, if you are building it yourself, why not? But you got

to use GOOD PARTS!

My fathers Marantz 8B was a fine amp. It's just that it was cooking itself down

in the compartment my father had made for it in his cabinet. It was getting so

hot the pitch was starting to run out of the transformers into the chassis

below! I tried a fan, bit it made too much noise. At the time I got rid of it

the value was nothing like it is today. The store gave me $170 for it in trade

for the McIntosh Mc250 that replaced it. It was not considered a classic until

years later.

I agree about the other forum's rules. The objectives here are different. I

suspect Klipsch would not really care if I did do obvious promotions of my

networks here. They have already sold a speaker to and made their money off of

anyone who buys one of my networks and some people may even buy a heritage

speaker just because they like the idea that some after-market people are

supporting it. I don't need to plug the networks anyhow. It seems that mostly

everybody is doing that for me! Word-of-mouth advertising is the best kind of

advertising there is. Besides, I have more orders than I can fill already and I

do advertise in the magazines once in a while besides. When I defend my design

it's because it's my "baby", not because I will be loosing sales!

Al K.

[Audio Flynn]

I spent allot of money over the past 5 or more years to convince myself surround is great for movies but is poor for music. It is an experiment; do I blame it on someone...no. I was looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It was not there.

Brenan,

Easy to whoop on a guy not making enough money to buy a condo in Maui from selling crossovers; when you know his name.

Go pick on Sony(or fill in the blank) for their crap products.

When you are on the edge of the razor for high end of any technology or passion; THINGS JUST DO NOT WORK OUT SOMETIMES!

Every tweak has risk to be a step backward.

In 1984 I bought a 400 megabyte hard drive for a CAD medium risk project for $ 16,000. The project fell short of expectations. Should I have blamed Fujitsu? I blame me. Know how much 400 meg cost today?

I have spent $ 300,000 in failed R&D projects over the past 5 years. Yet they still let me manage a $ 28 million "profitable" business unit.

Want stress releif? Kick your dog.

Nit picking about Al's crossovers ...kick yourself!

Differ in my opinion, have at it.

Rick

flynnnstr@aol.com

PS

Klipsch moderators are asleep or sit on the fence too much.

[mobile homeless]

To be totally honest, one of the ONLY things I like about the software and administation of the Klipsch Forum IS the very fact that the moderators ARE hands off. It is the way it should be. The Audio Asylum is a more simple package with software that actually gets the job done in a more succinct fashion with better organization, search feature, layout, speed, and each individual post with its own subject line so relevant tangents do not get buried, something that happens all too often in ye olde Klipsch Forum. Again, there are no dancing graphics and speed is HIGH.

YET, the damn moderators in the Asylum have always given me a pain in the skull cap. I have had countless run ins and post deleted. Of course, the content and exchange is quite different from the Klipsch forum, just as is the basic experience level across the board. There are quite a few cutting edge designers/manufacturers who post and debate on the Audio Asylum. And there is a VERY LARGE educated DIY contingent there as well, a group that challenge/call the manufacturers when the slope gets a bit slippery. The general experience and exposure level to all sorts of gear is quite high. The idea of engineering COMBINED with solid listening skills and exposure to a wide variety of equipment is a given, not something that seems foreign. Measurements and specs are seen for what they provide with their limitations acknowledged and the overall picture intact. Solid engineering combined with an open mind and solid listening skills/exposure/experience is what is needed to bring about better designs.

So I think it is a positive to have the moderators here let the exchanges run their course, no matter how sophomoric and childish it becomes. The logic can be faulty, the writing horrid, the points slanted, but the readers must read between the lines and uncover this on their own. Many times, the participants hang themselves on their own words, something that would be like adding insult to injury when posting a response.

Unfortunately, it doesnt always happen that way.

kh

[Chris Robinson]

Nothing like a house alarm going off in the neighborhood at 3:30 am to chase me into the kitchen for a cup of joe and a brief stint on old Forum.

I just read this thread and agree that the debate is healthy. I have five of Al's networks and think they're just fine (IMHO). They are expensive for sure, but Al's entitled to charge for his time and IP, and I was willing to pay it. When I had my "intrusive" SuperAmp (as heard through my Khorns), I sure was glad that Al designed the network with adjustable tap settings. At least I didn't have to run from the room with my hair on fire when I threw on a poorly recorded CD.

Kelly, nice to see you posting again; hope everything's okay with you. BTW, it looks like the Wright deal's going to fly. Fingers crossed!

[Mike Lindsey]

----------------

On 10/28/2002 11:42:11 PM Audio Flynn wrote:

I spent allot of money over the past 5 or more years to convince myself surround is great for movies but is poor for music. It is an experiment; do I blame it on someone...no. I was looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It was not there.

----------------

Rick,

I'm very curious what you are using for speakers as well as DVD player. If you do not have direct radiators (full range speakers) in the rear, and a DVD player that cannot handle DVD-A, then I am not surprised with your unhappiness.

I have always been a 2-channel guy and predominantly listen to music (90%) versus watching movies. However, I occasionally like to listen to multi-channel music, whether it be a DTS DVD-Video or a DVD-A recording, and have found that the full range rears (along with a good bass manager) makes a big difference.

It's not for everybody, but with the right room and system, it can sound quite good...

Mike

[HDBRbuilder]

Erik...

Just wondering....Did you try the grippers on the bottom of the LaScalas yet?

Nope...the oak LaScalas are not sold yet...and the weather here has delayed the finishing of them...too humid...having to do one coat of final finish every other day right now....but hopefully my buddy will be by soon with his digital camera to take some pics when the last coat is applied and dry.

[mobile homeless]

Lordy, Andy. Heh.... Not exactly the best segue considering the subject of this thread! heh... Beautiful.

kh

[Al Klappenberger]

Mobile,

Good grief! What WAS the subject of this thread? I forgot!

Al K.

[HDBRbuilder]

As for Al K pushing his product on this forum...I have never seen it...what I actually HAVE seen is the other members of this forum pushing the ALK networks FOR HIM...because they LIKE THEM!! That being said....I have also seen Al K being as helpful as possible to anyone he sees has a need or want for his expertise!! He offers up his design for the DIY-types at no charge!! He even offers up help for them if they run into problems building his design!!...again, NO CHARGE!! He also offers up advice on what members can do to improve their existing networks...again, at no charge!! He never seems to promote his self-built networks, but is willing to sell them when folks ask him about them!! Is that wrong? I don't think so!!

As for my building a few extra pairs of oak LaScalas...well...nobody has bought any of them YET!! And it actually is looking to me that nobody WILL, EITHER!! So, not only will I be at a loss for all the time I have put into them, but I will also be at a loss for the materials I have in them!!

There are a few members who have expressed a desire for me to build them some replacement cabinets for some of the Heritage speakers...but...so far, anyway...none of these members have made a decision on when they want this done...if at all!!

Am I making any money from this forum? Hell No!!

If/when the oak LaScalas are ever sold at the price I am asking for them...will I be making any profit? Hell No!! Profit margin is what you have left after expenses are deducted!! My expenses in time alone are more than I am asking for these!! So...why am I doing it? Let's just call it temporary insanity!! Shall we? I wanted to see if it could be done and how much it would cost in time and materials...now I know the answer to both of these questions...it CAN be done...and it is way too costly in time and materials to make a living doing it, unless one is asking about twice what I am asking for them!!

nuff said!!

[Loudisbeautiful]

Hello, Do you still have the alk for sale...im intrested in buying them if so. Did you build them or are they AL's. My email is jpfream@hotmail.com...Please send picture if you can

Thank you for your time,

Jeff