La Scala crossover upgrades-ALK network-bass driver

[mike stehr]

heh!

[mobile homeless]

"Real science" triumphs over magic and innuendo, eh Al? Your response comes as quite a surprise on several fronts. At least some that might notice and read between the lines got to see a bit of what I dealt with via emails months back.

I have some comments regarding your post, the logic, delivery, and science within, but it's late and my wife's birthday. A point by point discussion is warranted. I thought I was pretty fair to your side and just reporting basically what you had relayed to me in our email exchanges months back concerning your crossovers, tube amplification, distortion theory and it relevance, and your reliance on measurements on judging the sound and musical perormance of gear.

kh

[NOSValves]

I do believe Mobile is working on one of his 4 hour 47 edit type posts here LOL !!!

[Guy Landau]

Al,

I have'nt stole more parts from your network so there's no reason to feel painfull.I just don't have a 3.3 mf capacitor on hand,so I thought of using the 2.2mf+1mf in parallel instead.

[Erik Mandaville]

C'mon you all...

Please lets not make an assortment of coils and capacitors a personal issue. I really enjoy and learn from the different trials and experiments of those who have been working on these Klipsch for some time, but it bothers me if things start looking like a platform constructed to determine who is right and who isn't. Certainly I don't want to 'preach' or anything of that kind, but I do wish for open, friendly exchange that includes room for a differing of opinion and philosophy -- in other words, just be lighthearted about the matter.

If there are personal issues to resolve, perhaps those could be worked-out, discussed, or otherwise reconciled in a more personal field?

Al and Mobile (as he always has been) have been a very great source of information for me, as have others. I just think it would be most beneficial and constructive to maintain some objectivity -- both about the importance of relying on scientific measurement AND auditioning and listening. I kind of feel that these two camps don't need to be mutually exclusive, and that a bit of both might possibly offer the greatest reward.

And hell! It suddenly dawned on me that Al is the maker of the ALK networks!!! Geez, sorry about that Al, I don't know what took me so long to figure that out?! I look at your very well-made/built networks daily (thanks again to Mobile H. for supplying his usual high-quality pictures), wishing I could put in an order right now for a pair. As Kelly said in his compliment, it is not everyday that a company is willing to make public its 'schematic secrets.'

Parts for the 'A' network can be bought at Parts Express for a reasonable amount -- of course the transformer would have to come either from the original network or Universal.

Enjoy the weekend,

Erik

[Al Klappenberger]

Erik,

You speak many words of wisdom! I don't mind when somebody tells me I'm wrong.

In fact, that's the only way I will question one of my own preconceived notions.

We all have them you know! What I objected to is Mobile telling the world what I

believe without knowing what logic goes behind it! This become something similar

to a quote out of context. When I respond to an email to answer a question, and

I get a lots of them, I answer the question with the answer I believe to be

correct. Most people who ask these questions won't understand a complete answer

using a lot of fancy technical terms. I usually don't know who I am emailng to

anyhow. The fact is, I don't even remember an email conversation with "Mobile"

about such things a SET amps and oil caps. I probably just didn't know who he

was! I do remember recent emails with him offering to give him an extension on

my 2 week buy-back policy if he wanted to try out a set of my Cornwall networks.

That was several weeks ago and I have not heard a response! I did this because I

believe him to be a good representative of an extreme "set" of Klipsch fans and

would like to know his opinion of them.

And yes, I am the AL K behind the ALK!

Al K.

[Randy Bey]

Hey, I've got a great idea!

Al, why don't you loan Kelly the crossovers, and he can 'break them in' or whatever nonsense he's mouthing, then listen to them, and then produce a report for everyone here!

I'd hold him to a time frame though for the courtesy. Look how long we've been waiting for the Cornwall review.

When he's done, he can ship the crossover back for you to sell, or if he loves them, he can buy them from you on the spot!

[Mike Lindsey]

Sounds logical to me!

Mike

[NOSValves]

Mike,

Actually it sounds very logical on mobiles side of the fence he has everything to gain and nothing to lose. The other side of the coin is a different picture all together.

Craig

[Randy Bey]

yeah, Craig, you're right.

Al already has the adoration of most of the ALK customers here. MH's review will either be positive or negative (duh), and if positive, won't change much around here. If negative, the owners of the ALKs will be returning them in droves.... wait, maybe not. If negative, it will be just another point of light in the darkness. Easily forgotten and lost in the archives.

So, I'd be surprised if Al loans MH the networks, and probably even surprised if he would sell them to MH. I think that's a show of faith on Als part that he would sell them to the likes of MH.

In conclusion, it would be bad business for Al to let a pair of ALKs fall into MH's hands. I would advise against it.

[Al Klappenberger]

Randy,

As I recall, an offer was made to loan YOU a set of my networks by somebody who lives right near you. What happened? Did you chicken out? Are you afraid to test a REAL set of my networks yourself?

I descovered long ago with computer software demos using key counters that people abuse them. You must have a deposit or your potential customers will forget all about the deal. My offer is right on my web site. You buy it first and if you don't like it, I will buy it back within 2 weeks if the customer doesn't like it and has not wrecked it. I offered "Mobile" a lot longer and UNspecified time limit and have heard NOTHING! Maybe he is chicken too.

Al K.

[Randy Bey]

You're right, Al. I haven't taken up that person on the offer, but mostly because it would not be fair to you.

I am biased, and I am the first to admit it.

Further, an hour, or a day, or a week, wouldn't be enough time to evaluate the crossovers for their sonic benefits.

You may remember that you and I spent weeks working on the set I built. It was no quick decision then, and it will be no quick decision now.

[Randy Bey]

PS,

I should say that I do like you Al, you were very helpful when you didn't need to be. I helped you too, if you remember, with the measurements for the geometry of your crossover.

We don't agree, but that isn't cause to dislike you.

My only complaint is how this forum has become a marketing venue for you. There is a concept of 'communal reinforcement' which I believe is benefiting you here. I alluded to it in my previous post.

I don't really want to hear how your crossovers are an improvement over the ones Klipsch provided. The proof of that is neither scientific or auditory; it is that Klipsch did not buy the design from you. Why do you suppose that is?

[Al Klappenberger]

Randy,

Yes, you did help me out on the measurements, and it was very useful help

indeed. My main objection is comments by you and some others about my alleged

misuse of this forum for sales purposes. I take serious objection to it. It

makes me MAD! My network design was born on this forum, encouraged on this forum

and discussed at length on this forum. This happened only because I have been

here since January of 2000. The project was INSPIRED my this forum. I did the

design and made it public on this forum without any idea that anyone would

actually want me to build them a set. I expected the design to be looked at with

passing interest by a few experimenters and then forgotten. I did it because I

have been designing filters (multiplexers) like this at microwave frequencies

for years and realized I could do it. I have done multiplexers with as many as 5

port at frequencies approaching 1000 MHz (that's MEGAHertz). Does answering

questions about this sort of thing make me guilty of using this forum as a sales

vehicle? Some people seem to think so! It is true that most of the people who

have ordered networks from me have read good things about them from OTHER people

on this forum. Does that make ME guilty of using it as a sales tool just because

I am here? You tell me, should I go completely away? Should I refuse to answer

any questions about crossover networks fearing that somebody might think I am

promoting my product here? One fellow (Eric, I think) didn't even realize I was

"ALK"! I never even initiate the name "the ALK network", others here have! I

simply called it the "A series replacement". I am stuck between a rock and the

usual hard place with this! Maybe you think I should be building these networks

and giving them away at my cost for the privilege of staying on here? How will

the people here even know what my cost is considering I buy parts in quantity? I

would still be accused of abuse! GIVE ME A BRAKE RANDY!

Al K.

[Randy Bey]

Al, this is not alleged misuse.

This is not a marketing forum.

You may notice others here have started trying to market their wares. Oak LaScalas, Cardas interconnects, possibly more.

Heck, if I could do something more than be a pain in the a** I'd try to sell stuff here too.

So, yes, I object. I am somewhat surprised that Klipsch turns a blind eye to your behavior, but it is their forum after all, not ours. We enjoy the usufructs of their wonderful forum.

And you did not address my other points; I do not expect you to. It is your nature.

[Al Klappenberger]

Randy,

You did not address my point either! What am I supposed to do, GO WAY? TELL ME!

To your point about Klipsch buying my design: Why would they! It costs WAY to much for them to build it. Would General Motors put Rolls Royce engines in their cars? Of course not! My design is NOT suited for a production product. Put yourself in Klipsch's place. Would YOU buy somebody elses design when you have your own design that is doing the job nicely? Of course not! Klipsch doesn't mind what I am doing for a simple reason. It doesn't bother their bottom line at all! THINK MAN! Klipschorns aren't going to stop selling becouse one little guy is building upgrades for one part!

Al K.

[NOSValves]

Randy,

I would have to agree with Al here. I don't want to open a can of worms.But he isn't on here constantly hounding people to buy his Xovers !! He helps anyone that decides to build them himself at any time supplies free schematics , pictures and parts lists !!. I myself rebuild amps for fellow members all the time for a very reasonable price at least I think so considering the hours spent. I don't hound people to buy vintage or hound them to send them to me. I try to help anyone considering to do the work themselves. If what your saying is true then I'm abusing the forum also !

Craig

[Randy Bey]

Yes, well, I guess I am spoiled. I frequent other forums where manufacturers are welcome (as Al is here) but they are forbidden to enter into discussions of merit between their product and another. They also cannot mention their products, except when asked a specific question (i.e. what brand capacitor do you use? Solen.)

I'm sure there are lots of ways you could continue to sell your product; I just don't think this is the forum.

[Al Klappenberger]

Randy,

I deny that I am actively using this forum as sales tool. I intentionally avoid

"plugs" that would do that. I don't need to. I have more orders than I can fill

already. Here's an example of how this could be done, and YOU have given me the

opportunity! To your point about why you did not take the fellow up on the loan

of my "A series" network, I say that you would not need two weeks to hear the

difference between my network and the stock "AA". You would be able to tell in

minutes! After all I have said many times that I don't believe in burn in time.

Besides, your friends networks would already BE burned in. Now THAT is a sales

pitch! I challenge you find any example in any of my previous posts where I have

done this before! Besides, BULL HOCKEY, if you do the test you will discover

exactly how much the low grade parts you used to build my design degraded the

network and you just don't want to admit it. DO THE TEST! I DARE YOU! <--- Now,

is THAT a sale pitch? Maybe.

Here's another reason why Klipsch does NOT buy my network design: Why doesn't

Klipsch replace the K401 squawker horn in the Khorn and La Scala with the newer

Tractrix design horn? It would be THEIR design and they wouldn't have to pay any

outsider anything. That's what they pay their engineers to do isn't it? They do

not simply because it would no longer be a Klipshorn! You don't change a

classic. Only the Khonr owner can do that. If you don't want the Klipschorn

sound you will buy something else! To change it is to make it into something

else! This goes for the crossover network too. Think like a loudspeaker

manufacturer, not like and audiophile!

Al K.

[Parrot]

Randy,

Al isn't getting rich selling his networks. Do you have a hippie background or something, that makes you suspicious of commerce?

You are out of line to criticize Al's design when you haven't followed his design. That reminds me of a recent case where I gave a couple women directions to a picnic. They arrived late, all upset and in a huff, and told me that they made it there through no thanks to me, because they weren't about to follow my stupid directions! (Even though I'd lived in the area for 20 years and they'd never been to it before.)