Deang Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 I am considering building a "Cornwall" type speaker. It's no secret here that I really don't care for the sound of the stock configurations of the various Heritage designs. This is not meant as a "slam", but simply more related to a matter of individual taste. I love the dynamics and attack of Heritage -- but find them to be too "edgy" for my ears. So, where do I begin? I don't want to have to sell my firstborn to do this, but am looking for "big horn" sound in a three way (God help me), with a budget of $1200 or less. So let's assume I'm building a cabinet with the identical dimensions of the Cornwall, already have a 15" driver in mind (being suggested to me by Steve from Layne Audio -- as a superior replacement driver for the Cornwall), and will want to use a crossover I can build from scratch (probably Al's ALK). -- what horn/driver combos should I use for the tweeter and sqawker, that will give me "the sound" (without peeling my ears from the side of my head)? Here is everyone's chance to "convert" me. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Dean---Since you don't care for the Heritage sound why bother trying to massage a DIY Heritage type into acceptability? That doesn't make much sense does it? Why not build a simple Altec 2-way? The 416 woofer in a vented box and cross at 500hz to 902 drivers on 511 horns. Simple, tried and true and VERY hard to beat in sound quality. And the smoother, more open sound (IMO) of Altecs may be more to your taste. If you want a shallower box use 811 horns and cross at 800hz. And once you're using real high performence drivers like the Altecs your options open way up and you can experiment with various horns on the 902s like Edgar saladbowls or JBL horn-lens combos. As for Cornwalls, when I owned them I replaced the mid horns with a tractrix horn from the Klipsch Pro line, this mod is explained and shown on my website. I think this mod improved the CWs. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 I agree with Tom's suggestion to a point. I'm not sure that a 2-way using either 511 or 811 will go high enough for everybody's taste. I by no means offer my POV after trying multiple drivers, but I have heard a number of Altec A7 VOTs, and a couple of Altec Model 19's (which IMO is a gorgeous unit). 511b's and 811b's respectively. I found them to be in posession of an excellent blend of robust horn 'feel', solid tight bass, and effortless mid-highs. I also felt that they were missing the very top end, the part that is percieved as much as heard. Not quite 'airy' enough for me. If you're set on a CW clone, I would upgrade the bass driver. One thing I forgot to mention in my response to you in the 511 thread was that the Cobreflex with either SAHF or K55V will fit into a CW sized cabinet. I would use this as my midrange, with a SAHF. I have found it to be more open and detailed without any 'edginess'. None! For the tweeter, I would not recommend the K55/T35. I am in agreement with you as far as harsh horn edge is concerned, and feel that this item is very responsible for the 'bad rap'. My tweeter of choice is the Jensen Rp302. This is the silkiest, smoothest tweeter I have ever encountered. However, you will not be able to keep within your budget constraints as this little guy is 1. hard to find and 2. highly sought after (big $$ to the tune of $500 up for a pair). I also do not particularly like the University 4401, but it is IMHO, a better compromise than the K77 for those that do not like the scratchy edginess often associated with horns. The drawback as I see it....or hear it....with the 4401 is that it is generally useless above 15000cps. This downgrades the system to (sub)A7 level. You will find youself yearning for additional 'loft' at which point you may as well have made a 2-way. Perhaps the answer lies with a University HF206. These too are sought after, but generally sell for about $100/pair. I have not personally previewed this guy, but I will soon. Have had my eye on it as a suitable replacement for the remaining 4401's that I have not swapped out for RP302's yet. University specs this the same as the 4401, but instead of a 15000cps upper limit, they state 'up to inaudibility'. Of course there are many here who no doubt have infinately more knowledge than I do, especially with regards to modern day tweeter offerings. After settling upon a driver scheme, I would then try and work with Al to engineer a net that 'makes it all work' together, pulling out the best each component has to offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Ed---True, some people find the Altecs a little soft on the top end. My best friend, who owned several Altecs, used to use a piezo facing backwards to add a little air. I've played with tweeters (Fostexes, EVs, JBLs and piezos) with Altecs but always ultimately rejected their use preferring the coherance and naturalness (to me) of the simple 2-ways. The 902 driver, with it's tangerine phase plug and powerful ferrite magnet, is generally regarded as having the most extended top end of all the Altec 1"ers. They sure sound good to me. :-) www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 My Klipschorns are now black, and oak, the top fronts are oak ply, with the Altec 511bs, K-55-V driver, sounds beautifull, still listening! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 24, 2002 Author Share Posted October 24, 2002 Hmmm, the "Cornwall" idea appealed to me because I thought it would simple to execute. I completely forgot about horns that run low enough to avoid having to use the squawker. I also knew I would have access to plenty of info regarding the ALKs -- so I wouldn't have the additional stress of trying learn how to build a crossover from scratch. I'm what they refer to as mathematically declined. Since I don't hear squat above 14K -- I'm not particularly worried about "air" missing from the upper treble. I find most of my thrills in the midrange and bass. Though I don't like the idea of running any tweeter down to 500Hz, I don't like the idea running a 15 incher up to 800 even more. Questions: "Why not build a simple Altec 2-way? The 416 woofer in a vented box and cross at 500hz to 902 drivers on 511 horns. Simple, tried and true and VERY hard to beat in sound quality." I like this idea a lot. What the hell is a 416 woofer, and where do I find it? I guess you know the dimensions of the bass bin and the size port(s) I need? What is a 902 driver and where do I find it? Will it really go down to 500 without freaking out? Same question regarding the 511 horn. Are these all vintage parts? I appreciate the detailed posts guys, but you need to spoon-feed me somewhat until I catch up. Do I dare bring up the issue regarding the crossover? Tom, I know you run your crossover's between the amp and preamp (or at least, I think you do). It was always my understanding that this was considered the "harsh" approach. Disagree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@silverfox@ Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 JUST BUY BOSE, Why try to reproduce something you don't like. Dont mean to be synical, a sq, is a sq, a circle is a circle, a cornwall nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Dean--The 416 was Altec's 15" woofer for high fidelity use. 3" edgewound vented voicecoil, cast frame, very powerful motor. 98db efficient and noted for it's smooth, open sound. The 902 was the last and the best of the Altec 1" compression drivers. Yes, it will run down to 500hz with no problem. Use this driver on the 511B horn. Altec is no longer made having been killed off by Telex when they bought EV, who had owned Altec. The drivers must be bought used or NOS. However the drivers were made up until around 1999 and are not all exactly vintage. Altec stuff is available used from ebay, prosound stores, the want-ads etc. Jammin Jersey in California and Total Audio in KC sell lots of Altec stuff. L&M Trading in PA also has lots of Altec, I recently bought a pair of very nice Altec 288-Ks from them for $315 including shipping, that's a great price. I don't have L&Ms address and phone number handy but can post it later. For links to JJ and Total Audio and lots more Altec info, including cabinet plans by Altec, check the links on my website. I bi-amp using passive filters between the preamp and amplifiers. However I've also bi-amped using active crossovers. I think the idea that using active crossovers causes harshness is simply an audiophile prejudice against prosound gear, most of the actives available being prosound. But I've used prosound actives to very good effect and heard many good horn systems using prosound actives. Altec passive crossovers are VERY good. But you must mind that the crossover matches the driver impedences as Altec made their drivers in both 8 and 16 ohms, your choice. I encourage you to read all the Altec info available from the links on my site, also a great deal of info is available in the forum and in the body of the Lansing Heritage site and the forum and body at the Unofficial Altec Site, both linked on mine. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Dean, If you can find the pictures of mdeneen's speakers, you will see exactly what Tom is talking about. He built custom cabinets with 416 woofers and 51lB horns and is also bi-amping. He is using a SS amp to power the woofers and a SET amp to power the 511B's. I believe the 511B's only go to about 13 or 14khz, so you probably won't need a tweeter here... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Here you go. I've got 3 that I will post here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Here's number 2... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 And number 3... Bear in mind, these speakers are huge! Hell, the 511B is the same width as a La Scala, so that should give you some idea. I believe he calculated the box size so that it would extend down to 35hz or so. You need a really big box to do that. Since this is a ported design, I am going to assume it is not horn-loaded. If you talk to Mark, he will tell you what to do and how to do it... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 I sure didnt know that Mark was using SETs to power the top end. Interesting, I must have had 30 debates with him about it. I hope he is not using one of the ASL SET alternative like the MGSi15 DT (it is an integrated). I think this is a huge compromise. Where did you hear he was using SET? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 I thought the EL34 Class A triode tube amp was a SET. My bad if it is not... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Mobile---Over my Altec 605s my ASL MG si-115 or whatever the Hell they call it sounded better than a Korneff 45 amp and matching preamp. Of course it could be the Korneff is just way overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Dean---L&M Trading 724-794-3303 This guy says he has everything Altec and as I said his prices are VERY good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Dean, You just finnished the update on the DQ-10 and now you want to build a Cornwall. Too wild; but I wish I had the time to do that myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stovebolt6 Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Tom Brennan, (or other Altec guys) I am going to do the project you outlined in this thread in the next couple of months. I have a pair of the 511b horns and have been looking for some suitable drivers. I saw this pair of 288-16G Drivers on eBay, and I have some questions I hope you can help with. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1394263113 1. How do they compare to the 902 and 909 drivers? 2. Are these the "large" format? 3. Are they really worth that much?! Thanks for any insight you can provide! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dean, For $1200 you could buy a pair of cornwalls and mod them quite a bit. If I was going to build something, I wouldn't duplicate a Cornwall. The squawker horn would be too hard to find and you should be able to get more/better output from a different woofer, made for bass reflex, and a smaller box. I don't know the specifics of the drivers mentioned, but Tom is leading you down a path that is going in the right direction. A Radian 850 looks like a good candidate for an 800 Hz crossover point in a 2-way system. http://www.radianaudio.com/products/comp_drivers/2in_drivers.htm John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Stovebolt---288s are large format with 1.4" throats and won't work in 511B horns. Will work on 511Es though. The price wanted for those 288-Gs is outrageous. I just bought a pair of nice 288-Ks from L&M, a dealer in PA, for $315, shipping included. The 288-K has better high frequency response having the "tangerine" phase plug and you don't have to worry if the ferrite magnet has been overpowered and lost strength as you must with used Alnico magnet drivers like the 288-G. The 288-G is best left to Alnico fetishist collectors, the high performence Altec freaks I talk to favor the 288-K. As for the sound, hard to tell as the horn used can have as much effect on the sound as the driver. But the combination of the Altec 1005B multicell and the 288-K is better to me than the 511B-902. More robust and solid, less distortion and just an overall better sense of ease. Highs are as good as with the 902-511, something I didn't expect. I'd advise anyone getting into Altec to go the 902-909 and 511B route, they sound great afterall and are a simple and easy to use combination. There is a bewildering array of horns available for the 288 driver; the 311 series, the 511E and a huge number of multi-cell and MantaRay horns in many dispersion patterns. All I can be sure that sounds good is the 288-K on the 1005B. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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