Doesnt anyone ever talk about music anymore?

[maxg]

Scrolling down the posts in this forum I see, often heated discussions on crossovers, transformers, drivers, cabinets and just about every component in a speaker / audio system, but very little on music.

Last night we had some friends round and the system was playing quietly in the background (as quietly as my system can anyway). Every now and again each person present drifted off into a music induced reverie only to rejoin the conversation some time later.

This was despite the facts that no-one present:

1. could design a crossover.

2. even knows what a cross-over is.

3. knows how my tube amps actually work.

4. can explain why a TT sounds so good.

5. could identify any of the drivers in the speakers.

......

the above represents just the start of what could be a very long list.

Somehow all of the above just aint that important unless you are a builder of such things.

Do any of you guys actually enjoy listening to music?

[Randy Bey]

Oh, yes.

In rotation are:

Sonny Rollins "Tenor Madness" (yes, not Saxophone Collossus)

Tori Amos "From the Choirgirl Hotel"

Joni Mitchell "Blue"

Lucinda Williams "Sweet Old World"

Grateful Dead "Terrapin Station"

Shakira "Laundry Service"

[Allan Songer]

Last night:

"Tenor Conclave" -Coltrane, Mobley, Sims, Cohn w/ the Red Garland trio--a classic Prestige blowing session.

"Behind the 8-Ball" Baby Face Willette-- one of the true Hammond B-3 gods. His version of "Closer Walk with Thee" on this Argo LP is incredible.

"The Latin Bit" Grant Green--An early 1960's Latin workout on Blue Note.

"Here 'Tis" Lou Donaldson's first foray (1961) into "Soul Jazz" with Willette on the B-3. Blue Note.

"You've Got A Date with the Blues" Helen Merrill--a great 1959 LP on MetroJazz from my favorite jazz singer. Any other Helen Merrill fans out there?

[mobile homeless]

Helen Merrill does have a unique style...very emotive and a beautiful voice, VERY beautiful, in fact. She uses the vibrato quite often at the end of the line (which I generally don't like as much). On hindsight, she sounds more modern than some others. She definitely has a more pure voice as well, at least compared to other greats. She isn't mentioned as much but I think she is imitated by many.

I just don't think she matches the feeling of someone like a Billie Holiday. While she may have a better voice, and technically better, there is something about Billie that transcends style, voice, or performance. I feel the same way about early Sarah Vaughan. While Merrill is damn talented and certainly excellent, there is that experience, grit, depth, and darkness to Billie Holiday that is more mesmerizing; it reaches deeper, has more substance, and speaks beyond the song. She would have to be my favorite as there will never be another like her. It is almost like talking about Hendrix in the guitar World, where you have other great guitarists, some fast and even more technically skilled, but NONE that reach that level of feeling...where the PERSON is the music. I always felt Merrill was singing the song. With someone like Holiday, there was no distinction between the song and the soul...and her soul was unlike any other.

kh

[Allan Songer]

I dunno about Merrill's "voice" being all that technically great--she's certainly no Sarah Vaughn or Ella or Carman McRea, that's for sure. What I get off on in listening to Helen Merrill is that she swings like a Bennie Green trombone solo--she uses her voice like a Jazz instrument without resorting to the pyrotechincs of scat (don't think she has the voice to do it anyway).

Check out her 1960's recordings with Dick Katz on Milestone--if there were ever a more pure example of the female voice as jazz instrument I don't know of any--with the EXCEPTION of just about anyting from Billie. She's on another planet.

If you want to hear some later Merrill from the 90's-I suggest you check out "Clear Out of This World" (w/ Wayne Shorter, Red Mitchell, Tom Harrell and others). This is the best jazz vocal album of the last 15 years and it came from a then 60 year old Merrill who had lost almost all the "prettiness" in her voice. But man, oh man--this woman is a JAZZ musician.

[Randy Bey]

My wife's sister gave me her Billie Holiday 3 disk (Mono, 1962) collection on Columbia. Don't have the name at my fingers right now.

She gave me this a day after I sent my preamp back to Cary for work.

It'll be first up when it gets back.

[mobile homeless]

Randy, one of the problems with the countless recordings of Billie Holiday is that there are a host of compilations and things that are VERY mediocre. She is not as bad as Charlie PArker in that he is REALLY hard to find complete on an album, especially considering how great he was... but so many peices of junk are out there. (as an aside, my Dad actually got to know Billie a bit when she was on 52nd street a lot. On several occasions, he was lucky enough to sit at a table with greats and have drinks, even though he was quite young at the time (under 20). Being a jazz drummer didnt hurt but he was mainly included because he was barely out of his teens and used to hang out and just really get in to it all. I remember him saying that everyone thought ole Charlie PArker was out of his mind at first...just making a lot of noise; that is how different it appeared at first, especially to the old guard; of course, calling my Dad old guard is a stretch since he was around 17 in '44!). IT will take a while to find the best of Holiday's stuff. My Dad made an amazing compilation of her great stuff that he hand picked from late 30s till around 57, a few yeas before her death. IT was done on a Nakamichi CR-7a and sounds VERY good. I am thinking of seeing if I can do a digital copy just to preserve it. Everyone that hears it once, wants a copy! (done on two Nakamichi three-head decks). It's really special and the best 90 min I have heard of her.

Allan, yeah, well I was mainly talking about comparing Merrill with others with less beautiful voices per say and more in the depth category. I agree that Sarah Vaughan was probably the most technically gifted singer ever... but even Vaughan didnt have the soul nor that certain something that Billie had that defines her. I see what you are saying about Merrill. Actually, I would say both Vaughan and Ella use their voices more as an instrument (even without the scat. I remember having to convince ole Randy a few years ago that there is more to Sarah Vaughan than Scat. Pick up her "In HI-FI" to hear what I love about her) You think Merrill swings more than an Ella? I havent heard the later recording of Merrill with Harrell etc. Would like to give it a listen too. I inherited a very early release of Merrill's "Helen Merrill" from my Dad. And I have her on many other sessions, but not too many dedicated to her. I didnt really get into jazz vocals until much later in my life, much prefering small group sax-based material. I actually thought that lyrics and vocals tarnished the purity of jazz, given the abstract too much grounding.. (yeah, it took awhile to get over that)

I saw you mentioned Zoot Sims and now Tom Harrell. I got to hear both of them at great dates (and some lame ones). Zoot Sims REALLY gave you that smokey feeling of a NYC jazz club, even when in Raleigh, NC. I loved his tone. I got to actually hear Tom Harrell on an amazing date with Phil Woods about 20 years ago at a little club where my ROCK back played! It was too strange to see Phil Woods and Tom Harrell standing on tis little stage... we were using CHURCH PEWS as seats! heh... Someone had brought them in... it was wild. The ceiling was no higher than 7.5 feet but what a show. On stage, their heads were only about three inches from the damn acoustic tiles! heh.... But Harrel looked so damn out of it, I thought he wasnt going to make it..he had his back to the audience and was actually LEANING on the back wall! But christ, he went OFF! Insane. And Woods and Harrell were a HELLUVA combination when firing!!!

kh

ps- Allan, btw, I wanted to thank you about the John Lewis rec. 2 Degress East... really is a great recording in all ways. That new CD remaster sounds very good considering. Havent found old vinyl of it, however.

[Mike Lindsey]

Kelly,

Where's that jazz list? I'm looking forward to the rec's. BTW, what did you do this weekend?

Mike

[Mighty Favog]

Last night when I got home from work (rough and busy day):

Frankie Goes to Hollywood- "Welcome to the Pleasuredome"

Then the girl friend came home:

Bob James and David Sandborn- "Double Vision" (To cook dinner by)

George Winston- "December" (Only because it was/is really cruddy weather outside)

[Allan Songer]

I might have a extra copy or two of the John Lewis/Bill Perkins LP. The best extra one I have is a 1958 pressing (World Pacific, deep-groove) in VG+ or better with a decent jacket (taped seams if I remember correctly). It has almost no groove wear, just a few hairlines. Nice copy, very little noise.

If you're interested I'd sell it for $25 incl media mail shipping.

Allan

[mobile homeless]

Hey Tom, if you can throw on Dave Sandborn and George Winston, you will do a back flip when hearing the likes of Sonny Rollins, early Coltrane, Pepper, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Johnny Hodges, Ben Webster etc. Man, you owe it to yourself to pick up some good vintage jazz to see what is missing from Sandborn et al. The depth, substance, and nuance really shows what is missing from so much later jazz which is almost in another form altogether, even though there is a vague resemblance, almost like veneer compared to real hard wood. Do you have any older stuff?

kh

ps- Allan, just saw your post. Yes, I would be interested! I'll shoot you a mail.

[Allan Songer]

By the way, Bill Perkins is playing Charlie O's with the John Heard trio (Heard on bass, Roy McCurdy on drums and a PHEEEENOM named Danny Grisset on piano)on Sat., Nov. 30 here in Los Angeles. No minimum, no cover. Perk is about 80 now, has two artifical hips, can't see very well, and has recovered from cancer TWICE, but he still plays beautifully. Every time I hear him live I wonder if it will be the last time.

[Stephen328]

You know, when it comes to it, it is really all about the music. I mean the entire point of all this equipment is to be transparent as possible. I mean all this fancy stuff to make the recording sound just like the recording. The irony is that this can never be really be achieved. Any piece of equipment, speakers, amps, cd players even cables have some coloration on the music. I once read a description of this phenomina: Picture yourself at the grand canyon. You can see all the detail and immensity of the canyon perfectly. Now Imagine your self looking at the same sight only through a window. This window is composed of many layers of glass, each layer distorting the view in some way. One view changes the color, another puts it out of focus and so on. Each of the panes is representative of a different part of the music system: wires, amps, players and such. The entire point of all these components is to restore the image of the canyon to its full potential. Speaking of music I need to buy some. Bye.

[mobile homeless]

DAmn Stephen! We were on a roll and you had to bring up equipment again!!! heh....

Yeah, I always liked that window pane (pain?) analogy; it's been quoted a lot with Stereophile attempting to put a patent on it in the 80s! But it does ring true in some ways, regarding equipment.

On the other hand, I dont know if transparency and accuracy is the most important goal anymore. I used to. Now I think you can have amazing detail and transparency while missing the essence and soul of the recording, rendering it musically NULL or dead on arrival. The hardest thing is to find equipment that keeps the music intact, preserving the soul and emotion, something that can be lost via some of the gear we call "High End" these days. I dont know how we survived the 70s "spec" wars....

kh

[Mighty Favog]

Mobile-

I'll have to look in the vinyl section of my study (where I keep all the media). I think there is an Ella Fitzgerald/Louis Armstrong album in there but I'm not sure which one. I think it was printed sometime in the early 70's. I know I've got a John Coletrane album that a friend gave to me belonging to his father after he passed away and only been played a couple times from the looks of it. As far as cd's go....does Dave Brubeck count??

[mace]

Max,

I'd rather listen to music than talk about it (especially in BB forum). On the flip side, I'd much rather talk about crossovers, components, acoustics etc. than listen to them!

I think Ray's sig sums it up nicely (Music is Art/Audio is Engineering).

Mace

[Allan Songer]

By the way, here's my jazz list again (100).

I did it about a year ago--I think I'd change it if I did it again today--add 5 or 6 and delete the same, but the core would remain.

http://www.rjcigars.com/Mens%20Almanac/BachelorPad/bachelor_pad.htm

[mobile homeless]

That's funny you like that quote in Ray's signature... In a way, it always bothered me, as I dont think you can be a great designer without the "art" side of the equation, and there is more to audio than engineering. That WAS the problem and a great reason why many pieces of gear sound like dreck musically. I always thought that quote of Ray's missed the point.

Tom, Dave Brubeck surely counts but he is still on the lighter side of the spectrum. I love Brubeck and he had some great people play with him, but a jump to the more complex and weighty material brings even more reward. Paul Desmond was a great sax player...but when comparing to people like Ben Webster, Lester Young, Parker, Rollins, Hawkins, Coleman, etc (disreguarding the different typs of sax as well ie Tenor vs Alto), it's quite a difference. Peopel like Sandborn are closer to the stylings of a Desmond than a PArker, Pepper, or Coltrane (though comparing Sandborn to Desmond is more than a bit of a stretch).

[Ray Garrison]

mobile,

That's kind of my point. Music IS art. If you build equipment and speakers "by the book", based on theory and measurements, there is a chance you might wind up with something plays music. John Dunlevy does. But he's in the minority. Most of the time, you wind up with a piece of audio equipment that measures really, really well, and will produce acceptable audio, but won't play music.

Whenever someone asks me if I'm an "audiophile", my response is usually something like "well, no, not really, but I love listening to music."

[Mighty Favog]

O.k. Mobile, I'll give it a shot. Before layin' down my car buyin' money I'm gonna listen to a few sound bites from Amazon just to get a (very) rough idea of what I'm in for.

Thanks!