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ebrandon

Cables for LaScala?

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2 hours ago, Dave A said:

Now, does that mean a better power cable that is 5000 dollars will sound better, not necessarily but what made my PC work vs not working was simply the gauge size.

 

1 hour ago, MC39693 said:

The real answer likely is ... spend what you are comfortable with but really do be careful not to get sucked into the marketing hype.

Exactly, and as far as power cords if the original is barely enough yes it could be a problem, same as weak power supplies which is more common. 

'

I do not have any problem with higher priced wires at all, different configurations of how the wire is built can also change things as much as materials used. People should use whatever they want and feel comfortable spending.

I just think it's a little silly in a way that once you pass the point of a good basic wire that can easily do just fine, there are much bigger problems to work on.  I say this because just consider that small improvement compared to such things that can dramatically change the sound. Like the room and source material, just these two things alone can make any speaker sound better, and that's just two of the big ones, and don't forget symmetry, it's real and I would guess most people have experienced it.  To me much better wires would come only after a great source and tuning the room with what is felt to be the electronics and speakers that work best for you and your down to the last little bit of improvement, source alone is a really big one that can make a crazy priced speaker sound average.

 

Just want to give my opinion, and that's all it is.

 

I use regular #14 with a tough shield since it's short runs, because if I really want to try to improve I should look at the room next and only use my best media as a source, but I'm happy as is so I just listen and enjoy, after 45+ years I stopped chasing something better.

 

I always think it's funny when someone goes silly with the incenditials and there spending all this time and money trying to get a bookshelf speaker or a mid quality speaker to do everything they could want, #1 start with a decent speaker that has a shot at doing well even if everything else is not the best. 

 

IMO..........only  

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7 hours ago, MookieStl said:

this little guy?

Oh that's OK.............but add some fish fry and hot oil and you have something perfect. :lol: 

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38 minutes ago, dtel said:

 

Exactly, and as far as power cords if the original is barely enough yes it could be a problem, same as weak power supplies which is more common. 

'

I do not have any problem with higher priced wires at all, different configurations of how the wire is built can also change things as much as materials used. People should use whatever they want and feel comfortable spending.

I just think it's a little silly in a way that once you pass the point of a good basic wire that can easily do just fine, there are much bigger problems to work on.  I say this because just consider that small improvement compared to such things that can dramatically change the sound. Like the room and source material, just these two things alone can make any speaker sound better, and that's just two of the big ones, and don't forget symmetry, it's real and I would guess most people have experienced it.  To me much better wires would come only after a great source and tuning the room with what is felt to be the electronics and speakers that work best for you and your down to the last little bit of improvement, source alone is a really big one that can make a crazy priced speaker sound average.

 

Just want to give my opinion, and that's all it is.

 

I use regular #14 with a tough shield since it's short runs, because if I really want to try to improve I should look at the room next and only use my best media as a source, but I'm happy as is so I just listen and enjoy, after 45+ years I stopped chasing something better.

 

I always think it's funny when someone goes silly with the incenditials and there spending all this time and money trying to get a bookshelf speaker or a mid quality speaker to do everything they could want, #1 start with a decent speaker that has a shot at doing well even if everything else is not the best. 

 

IMO..........only  

 

 

I completely agree. I used to tell people all the time and try to explain why in detail how the number one component in their system is their room. The best gear in the world, cost no object will still sound terrible if set up wrongly, in the wrong type of room. But most folks buying stereo equipment do not really understand the fundamentals of sound and how sound is created and why the room is so important. 
 

I think spending stupid amounts on cable is ridiculous as well. I would always sell descent stuff that was shielded/grounded, but rarely the good stuff. IMO a good solid termination and keeping the copper free from air are the most important things (outside of the proper gauge).

I just don't like to see people promote the dismissal of trying better cables because I have experienced on too many occasions where the better cable made a huge impact on the sound. I will be the first one to say why (usually doing with gauge size again) and I often dismiss the "better sound" of the 5000 cable but that does not mean buying a less expensive cable would not make a difference. 

I sold transparent audio cable,  they make some ridiculously expensive stuff. They also have a brick inline of their cable with electronics in it, and it does alter the sound. The argument was if the cable made as much impact on the sound of a system vs lets say a preamp and the cable cost less...which one makes  the most sense to purchase. The cheaper (albeit expensive cable) or the preamp?

Also, I find (not accusing you or insinuating this is the case) that most people who claim cable is BS, never actually listened to it or tried it out. Its like anything else, try it out if it works then go for it. If it does not work then don't make that purchase. I have no issues with that at all, I just don't like to see people told not to try something because someone else did not hear a difference. Its an injustice to the folks who might otherwise try something and actually hear a difference. 

A GREAT example is in fact Klipsch speakers. I sold my Epic CF's back in the day because I listened to the audiophile snobs with their martin logans and B&W's etc. They were always making fun of my Klipsch telling me they were junk. Even though I liked the sound, I listened to them and sold the stuff. Ever since then I have not enjoyed my system as much as I did when I had the Klipsch. The only reason I own a new pair of Forte III's now is because I threw out what all my old peers told me about Klipsch and instead I listened with my ears and my body. 

 

Its the same for cables. The response should not be "they don't make a difference" and instead should be "try them in your system to see if you hear a difference". 
Everyones ears hear differently. In fact some people extend beyond 20khz. I am lucky to hear 16.5 myself. 

 

EDIT: Lastly, for some folks cable is like jewelry, it does nothing but look cool...and for folks who have money to burn (I don't), they like the looks and so they buy it. I had customers upsell themselves into expensive cable just because of the looks. I have not sold audio since around 2006 (do graphic design now) but you meet all types of customers with a bazillion different needs. It's a crazy community, that's for damn sure. :)


 

Edited by Raygun
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Your right as I see it anyway, for anyone who doesn't think there room is a big part of what they hear they just need to take there speakers outside and try them without reflections and everything affecting the sound they hear inside.

49 minutes ago, Raygun said:

I sold my Epic CF's back in the day because I listened to the audiophile snobs with their martin logans and B&W's etc.

 

49 minutes ago, Raygun said:

Its the same for cables. The response should not be "they don't make a difference" and instead should be "try them in your system to see if you hear a difference". 
Everyones ears hear differently.

Your right,  that's another thing, everyone hears differently and likes different styles of reproductions, this alone is enough to throw it all off from what others may say. I would never buy a speaker because many like it, I may want to listen but I need to hear if I like it.

 

It's the reason there are so many different kinds of speakers and music, no one thing fits everyone, unless they just follow what they are told which is the worst way to go.

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For me, 12 gauge is the minimum size of speaker cable to use, and tinned copper never corrodes.

 

As for those super-expensive cables, I suspect that not many are actually sold.  They’re more likely made to show what the company can do, to raise its profile, and to make its cheaper cables seem better by association.  “These are from the company that makes $30,000 speaker cables, so their engineers must be really smart, so this entry-level cable must be better than entry-level cable from companies that only know how to make $5,000 cable.”  Or something like that.

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My Klipsch MWM bass cabs with 2 fifteens in each only has 18 gauge wire in the cabinets.

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Just to close the circle on the original post that started this thread.

 

Got a private message from a member who pointed out knuconceptz cables and connectors as a popular choice that he personally used and recommended.

 

Specifically, I ordered 16 feet of this cable http://www.knukonceptz.com/home-theater/speaker-wire/karma-ss-speaker-kable/sp/karma-ss-12-gauge-speaker-wire/

 

and these banana plugs http://www.knukonceptz.com/home-theater/connectors/

 

Cost $25 including shipping and arrived in a couple of days.

 

I was quite impressed with the appearance and apparent quality of the cable and banana plugs and it took about 1/2 hour to install everything. Following the suggestion of another member here, I skipped crimping spades to the cables and just attached the bare wire to the speaker.

 

I'm listening now, and believe there's substantial improvement in the sound.  Can't prove it scientifically, but I'm happy!

 

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

Edited by ebrandon
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45 minutes ago, ebrandon said:

 

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

Glad you're liking it, that the main goal. Sounds like a good price.

 

You can see how things go around here, you will get many opinions, jokes, picking on each other and everything else,  it's your job to poke around and find your answer, glad it worked out. This is how it goes alot around here, but it is very helpful most of the time. 

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Conductor quality/material and dielectric - insulation - are good things to consider.   I find PVC marginally acceptable, and am not interested in how flexible the stuff is.  Well, not entirely true:  I have found that stiffer cables tend to sound better than soft and flexible varieties.  PE (polyethylene) has been an improvement over common PVC and is not as expensive as PTFE (aka Teflon).  Basic electrical components, inductance, capacitance, and resistance and their measured performance specs. speak much louder to me than how easy to work with and flexible it is; and, as such, my speaker cables and IC more often consist of materials not usually advertised as 'speaker cable' per se'.  As soon as the term 'Audio or Audiophile grade' is applied to the product, price seems to sky-rocket.  Wire is wire, and can sound different just as capacitor dielectric materials can sound different -- and, once again, one will find cap insulated with PTFE tending to be significantly more expensive than other poly types.

 

And so, with that in mind, one CAN do very well in terms of wire and insulation appropriate for audio use.

 

I pulled the following out of my Ebay Watch list:  Silver plated copper under a thin layer of Teflon: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Twisted-Pair-16-Gauge-Teflon-Stranded-Mil-Type-E-Wire-Green-White-USA-Made/153221866504?hash=item23acbc2408:g:YroAAOSwfEdbxsmb

 

Another possibility is simple enamel-insulated magnet wire (as in the kind used to wind inductors and transformers).  High quality copper with hard, thin insulation will (SUBJECTIVELY AND IMO) will tend to have electrical characteristics that appeal to my own priorities.  They will tend to have less audible loss, mainly high frequency, to me over longer runs.  I was experimenting in the very early 90s with coaxial cables used for speaker runs, and learned of Jonh Risch, with whom I communicated a couple of times back then, about his cross-connected pair of Belden 89259 (I think it was......my memory is foggy.  Long time ago).

 

Speaker level signals are much larger than phono or line level signals, and are thus less prone to losses in the same way that IC is.  Resistance becomes a key component.

 

Have fun, don't forget as I did for years to listen to the music instead of the sound of electronic components! ;) 

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So.  Check Bluejeans:  https://www.bluejeanscable.com and Paul Speltz's Anticables: http://anticables.com. Of course there are a billion other places.  These two reflect what I think is good design based on simple fundamental principles - and both without superfluous decoration and ornamentation that does nothing but add cost.  IMO. Where you can choose between a long run of IC and one of speaker cable, try to make the longer distance be the speaker level signal.  It is much less susceptible to losses over longer runs than line level.  If you have a preamp that can drive great lengths of IC (I do), than it doesn't matter!  :) 

 

Oh, I got an 8ft pair of Anticables several years ago.  Highly revealing and transparent (no bandaids over poorly recorded material; will NOT warm up or dull music replay).  ***Note!  if want cables advertised to be soft, highly flexible, etc., etc., soft PVC insulation, these are NOT the cables you want.  They are incredibly stiff, but not at all impossible to work with.  And to me, they look very good in an understated sort of way. 

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Cables:

 

We know length affects resistance and we know that the longer cables are, the more chance for interference from external sources because we know that current moving through wire creates a magnetic field that may be disturbed, and external fields can also affect current flow. Also, insulation has capacitive properties. And finally, we know that conductive materials have different levels of conductivity, copper being the most conductive, surpassed only by silver. 

 

I think these are the main considerations of cable design.

 

The question is: Will improvements in these areas make an audible difference? Some say yes, some say not so much. What do we do about it? Cable manufacturers go to extraordinary lengths to make improvements in these areas and then pass the cost on to buyers. But we all know that the difference between MID-FI and HI-FI is about 1000$ (let's say), and the difference between HI-FI and SUPER-FI is 50,000$, and after that... well we have unobtanium space crystal aligned cables braided by aliens at Area 51, and organically grown cable elevators cultured in a lab with the DNA of Mt. Vesuvius.

 

I GUARANTEE you will hear a difference between these crazy expensive cables and 16ga lamp cord. But enough to justify the cost? Absolutely not. So how do we get 95% of the way there?

 

Keep your lengths as short as possible. Try to keep other wires and devices away from your cables. Use at least 12ga wire. Find pure copper that is well-wound. Make sure it's not copper-clad aluminum, aluminum is less conductive than copper. If you can afford it, use silver-plated pure copper wire. And if you can really splurge use pure silver wire. Unlike copper, when it corrodes, it surface tarnishes, protecting the material underneath and preserving sound quality (except for the ends, which need periodic cleaning). That's the only cost concession I'll make because numbers don't lie, on a scale of 1-100 for conductivity, copper is 100 and silver is 111. Conductivity and resistivity are real and affect the sound quality of wire more than any other single thing. I've never been able to hear a difference between terminated and non-terminated cables.

 

I've been making my own cables since I was a teenager, I've taken my cables to my local Hi-Fi shop and compared them to the crazy expensive ones and we couldn't hear a difference.

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