Pete H Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 They're here! I've got to say that the packaging on these was the absolute best I've ever seen. Triple boxed perfectly. Not sure why there are 4 aluminum plates telling me "Warning" unauthorized removal of the diaphragm voids warranty coverage. None of them are attached to the drivers? Now I need to read back through the thread to see how they're wired and get them playing to break in while getting the material laid out for the wings. My wires are Red/Black, but I thought I read that someone had a purple wire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 My wires are all purple and blue. I guess they got a new shipment. I never have figured out the purpose of the Warning plate other than for clamping a single driver to the top of the ESS speaker. Remember, these were designed to be bolted to the top of their speakers in single unit fashion. Fire'em up! '' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 The wire lead colors changed since last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 24 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: My wires are all purple and blue. I guess they got a new shipment. I never have figured out the purpose of the Warning plate other than for clamping a single driver to the top of the ESS speaker. Remember, these were designed to be bolted to the top of their speakers in single unit fashion. Fire'em up! '' Working on it. Just sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 General Q for those that know. Is there any big advantage to be gained by flaring the sides? If there is, I will look at doing it, but I'm not looking to add a lot of work for a minimal gain so I'm just asking as it's way above my pay grade at this point. I would like to cross over at the optimal frequency considering the BB's and a stack of ESS's with wings (whatever length and configuration best serves the purpose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, Pete H said: General Q for those that know. Is there any big advantage to be gained by flaring the sides? That's the subject of the thread--if you're referring to the wings discussed here. See post #1. The answer to your question is also found in this post: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/188177-double-stack-ess-amt-1-with-wings-possible-kit-for-heritage/&do=findComment&comment=2452268 The bottom line is that using wings and stacking them two-high are both important if you're trying to convert your loudspeaker(s) to two-ways (i.e., midrange-tweeter driver over a bass bin). If you're only thinking about replacing a tweeter in an existing three-way loudspeaker, then you really don't need wings--or dual-stacked AMT-1s. The reason for wings and stacked AMTs is to be able to cross below 2 kHz without issues. What frequency did you intend to cross at, or what kind loudspeaker model are you intent on using them on top of? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 My bad Chris, I should have said an advantage to a curved flair versus a straight flair. I'm trying to go 2 way any use stacked (2) on top of a double 12 1/4 space BB JWC's mini punch BB using 2 12" Eminence Delta 12LFADelta_12LFA.pdf I have no true horn BB at this time and due to space restraints, the largest I could go with would be the size of a La Scala. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkalsi Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 11 minutes ago, Chris A said: The reason for wings and stacked AMTs is to be able to cross below 2 kHz without issues. Chris Chris - did you mean 2Kz or 1Khz? I would imagine they are fine down to 1Khz, even without wings or stacked, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Sorry for misinterpreting your question. Without having polar measurements (every 10-15 degrees off-axis out to 90 degrees with the microphone the same distance), it's difficult to answer your question about curved wings. You'd be looking for "waistbanding" of the polars and a phenomenon known as "mouth bounce" is encountered with the straight-sided wings...if the curved wings are appropriate to this application/effort. 1 hour ago, dkalsi said: I would imagine they are fine down to 1Khz, even without wings or stacked, no? Marginal if you are thinking about playing them at higher SPL, i.e., at or near 100 dBSPL, or higher. The rise in harmonic distortion without stacking or added wing extensions is fairly sudden and relatively large, as if the diaphragm is suddenly running out of travel like in a subwoofer cone entering an xmax condition. I believe that's due to the lack of acoustic loading and polar directivity support of a horn (symmetric horn on both sides of the AMT-1 for the forward and rear waves) and the measurements that Rudy has done pretty much back up that assessment. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 13 minutes ago, Chris A said: Sorry for misinterpreting your question. Without having polar measurements (every 10-15 degrees off-axis out to 90 degrees with the microphone the same distance), it's difficult to answer your question about curved wings Don't be sorry, I didn't ask it clearly. I'll ask this, prior to going down that path. Based on your experience, well beyond mine, do you think it's worth a look? I have almost no understanding of what the differences might be with straight sides versus curved sides for the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, Pete H said: Based on your experience, well beyond mine, do you think it's worth a look? If I say yes, you'll probably do it. If I say no, you'll probably not do it. I'd recommend building straight sided wings for now, and keep the curved ones in mind for future work, i.e., don't spend a lot of time on curved wings. At some point, it will become interesting and informative to have the answer to your initial question, but for now, I'd say that is a secondary issue. I'd rather spend more time on whether or not the top of the horn (the open side that is not currently enclosed by wings or the surface the AMT-1 is sitting on) needs to be closed, and the shape of the portion of the ramp extending from the top of the diaphragm opening to the top portion of horn (the part that doesn't currently exist) needs to be thought through, designed, built, then tested and listened to subjectively. Rudy says it kills the ambience of sound, but I'm still not sure if there are issues with the details of the throat area of the top-of-horn extension that's creating the problems, not necessarily just the presence of the top wall of the horn. I'd like to see more acoustic support of the ribbon if possible, because that might further enable lowering the crossover frequency, which is a big deal for even more potential loudspeaker types. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 My plan will be to try this as a simple stack with wings and I'm open to fabricating something different to test, such as a flair on the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chris A said: If I say yes, you'll probably do it. If I say no, you'll probably not do it. I'd recommend building straight sided wings for now, and keep the curved ones in mind for future work, i.e., don't spend a lot of time on curved wings. At some point, it will become interesting and informative to have the answer to your initial question, but for now, I'd say that is a secondary issue. I'd rather spend more time on whether or not the top of the horn (the open side that is not currently enclosed by wings or the surface the AMT-1 is sitting on) needs to be closed, and the shape of the portion of the ramp extending from the top of the diaphragm opening to the top portion of horn (the part that doesn't currently exist) needs to be thought through, designed, and built, then tested and listened to subjectively. Rudy says it kills the ambience of sound, but I'm still not sure if there are issues with the details of the throat area of the top-of-horn extension that's creating the problems, not necessarily just the presence of the top wall of the horn. I'd like to see more acoustic support of the ribbon if possible, because that it might further lower the crossover frequency, which is a big deal for even more potential loudspeaker types. Chris In my initial testing, I did note that the 'top' did kill the openess and airy properties of the AMT. However, please understand that I did not do much testing on that, and the 'horn' I built had 90 degrees of flare on all sides. The top and bottom of the driver are approximately 120 degrees IIRC. So, I would guess that a properly designed and tested horn would likely exceed any results I have gotten. But, for me, I have achieved what I needed to for my 2-way system. In an ideal world, I would love to see ESS come up with something that is more commercial and nicer looking than anything I could cook up. Ricky, of ESS, is working on this type of thing and I have steered him to check on our progress. I suspect the Heil has a great future if someone with knowledge and engineering expertise could spend time on this. I don't have that kind of know how. Building a true horn for this driver would be a huge undertaking I suspect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 16 hours ago, Chris A said: If I say yes, you'll probably do it. If I say no, you'll probably not do it. I'd recommend building straight sided wings for now, and keep the curved ones in mind for future work, i.e., don't spend a lot of time on curved wings. At some point, it will become interesting and informative to have the answer to your initial question, but for now, I'd say that is a secondary issue. I'd rather spend more time on whether or not the top of the horn (the open side that is not currently enclosed by wings or the surface the AMT-1 is sitting on) needs to be closed, and the shape of the portion of the ramp extending from the top of the diaphragm opening to the top portion of horn (the part that doesn't currently exist) needs to be thought through, designed, built, then tested and listened to subjectively. Rudy says it kills the ambience of sound, but I'm still not sure if there are issues with the details of the throat area of the top-of-horn extension that's creating the problems, not necessarily just the presence of the top wall of the horn. I'd like to see more acoustic support of the ribbon if possible, because that might further enable lowering the crossover frequency, which is a big deal for even more potential loudspeaker types. Chris Agreed. Additional loading may be able clean up some of the anomalies in the response and provide the ability to push the driver lower at higher output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Progress on the final design. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 OK, I'll admit that those are pretty sexy and refined.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Nice work @Rudy81 as usual! Soldered and shrink wrapped wire extensions onto the drivers, wired them up and set up a basic crossover through the mini dsp HD and they're breaking in. I have played a little with positioning the stack on the mini punches, which have the 12's about 17" back from the face and put some large temporary wings on that are about 20" long (it's what I had stacks of laying around) and it was pretty apparent that choosing between wings that long and none, none won the quick unscientific listening test. I will cut those in half and do some incremental listening and start pulling measurements on Sunday as my schedule is really busy until Sunday morning. i will reserve any more opinions until I have time to measure and they are a bit more relaxed. Currently crossing at 800. Much more to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said: OK, I'll admit that those are pretty sexy and refined.. Agreed, and if he made an extra set, you would be willing to pay? LOL I'm sure he has templates and they certainly look fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said: OK, I'll admit that those are pretty sexy and refined.. Thank you. I've built so many I've lost count and learned along the way. I decided to forgo the threaded rods, not necessary for our application unless you want to bolt them down. Have yet to figure out how to make open top look good once the drivers are in there. Otherwise, I should be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Pete H said: Nice work @Rudy81 as usual! Soldered and shrink wrapped wire extensions onto the drivers, wired them up and set up a basic crossover through the mini dsp HD and they're breaking in. I have played a little with positioning the stack on the mini punches, which have the 12's about 17" back from the face and put some large temporary wings on that are about 20" long (it's what I had stacks of laying around) and it was pretty apparent that choosing between wings that long and none, none won the quick unscientific listening test. I will cut those in half and do some incremental listening and start pulling measurements on Sunday as my schedule is really busy until Sunday morning. i will reserve any more opinions until I have time to measure and they are a bit more relaxed. Currently crossing at 800. Much more to come. Without wings they sound fantastic, but you lose the boost between 500hz and 2khz. If you take measurements, you will see that the lone AMTS need a little help between 1khz and 2khz. Otherwise, they are pretty dang amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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