What a fright that was.....

[maxg]

So yesterday a guy called in response to my newspaper advertisement for the Heresy's and wanted to come over to see/hear them.

I duly got home early, disconnected the Sansui's, connected the Heresy's, switched off the sub and set about setting up the speakers to create a soundstage.

The record I grabbed to do the setup was my Wild Child Butler on direct to disk both because it was the first one that came to hand and because it is ideal for setting up the speakers. He sings spot on in the middle of the sound stage with the instrumentation evenly spread to the left and right.

So I am playing with the speaker toe in and deeply concentrating on getting it right when I am suddenly struck by how good this sounds. There is a clarity to the Heresy that is missing from the Sansui, and amazingly the bass that I have always been so disparaging about seemed wonderful.

Having got the soundstage spot on (a lot of practice doing this - took about 3 minutes) I sat down to listen properly.

My god it sounded good - so good I started to wonder if I was going out of my mind in selling them. I called Tony who listened to me rant patiently, calmly assuring me that all I needed was some psychiatric care, a few years of therapy and a vallium and all would be well.

Anyway I was deeply unsure of the sale when the doorbell rang and the guy arrived. To my utter joy it turned out that he had confused the Heresy with the professional version (I think) and he was expecting to see a much larger speaker with 104 dB sensitivity. I relaxed - phew - he didnt want them. Then he saw the Sansui's and went bananas - offering me $1500 on the spot for them - without even hearing them.

Turns out he owned the Sansui 7000 years ago and loved them. I then disconnected the Heresy's and reconnected the Sansui's in about 3 mintues flat - including the time to position them and setup the soundstage.

I put the same record on and immediately decided these were not for sale either. Whislt they lack the clarity of the Heresy they have so many other strengths in terms of soundstage width, depth, image size and the 3 dimensionality of the whole presentation I cant part with these either.

Anyway he was a very nice guy and we chatted about all thing audio for a while. Seems like he has some very nice items in his setup (including an Audionote amp that sounded really interesting). After a while he left and I surveyed the problem.

The problem is this: I love both of these speakers but I do not have the room to keep both (SWMBO is on my back about the space all of my gear takes up). I have to get rid of one of them. I could probably survive the loss of the Heresy easier but I would miss them.

I suppose the obvious choice would be to sell both and go out and find a pair of speakers that combines their strengths but do you really think that would be easy???

It took my 2 years to find the Heresy's and an instant to realise it was a sound I adored. It took a complete accident to find the Sansui's and a minute to realise its strengths verses the Heresy.

Sadly, the most obvious candidates are problematic for a replacement of the 2. I find the LaScala sound too harsh and the speaker itself too large. The Cornwall, an obvious candidate if I were in the US, was, as far as I can tell, never sold in Greece, and is equally large.

KHorns dont fit, Belles dont fit and both are too expensive here.

You dont suppose I should be looking at the RF5 or RF7 do you? This is a speaker I didnt like last time I heard it but that was matched to SS equipment.

God this hobby can drive you mad sometimes...

[maxg]

Actually it has suddenly occured to me that I may be able to address the relative weaknesses of the 2 speakers with the other upgrades I have in mind.

Maybe, just maybe, the changing of the amp for SET, and/or the changing of the cartridge for an MC unit with accompanying change of phono stage will either improve the soundstage of the Heresy or the clarity of the Sansui sufficiently to allow me to live with only one of them.

That would make life easier - I wonder if I can persuade SWMBO to hold fire on my execution until I find out???

There can be only one!!!

[marksdad]

hello max, since you have rediscovered your heresy's tell me, which do a better job in front channel? heresy, maybe an rf 5?as soon as i can i want to purchase either heresy's or lascalas, i have never heard either, and all opinions are valuable, thanks

[maxg]

I am not sure on the comparison you are asking me to make. I have not heard the RF5, only the RF3 and the RF7.

In simple terms comparing the Heresy to either of the RF's I prefered the sound of the Heresy on both mids and highs but they dont compete on bass.

This is not a problem for me as I have a sub which provides even more bass than either of the RF speakers.

It is an interesting problem when talking about a surround sound system. Ultimately the Heresy can be matched to a sub (as above) but more normally than in a 2 channel system (in other words it is more common to incorporate a sub into a surround sound system than it is into a 2 channel system).

In that setup they would make great fronts and IMHO provide better highs and mids than the RF options.

The problem is that there is no dedicated centre channel designed to provide a proper tonal match. This is not the case with RF speakers which have their own specially made centre channel.

Of course there are options - like a third Heresy for the centre but it is less than ideally shaped to stand on top of most TV's. You could even do with no centre channel and rely on the sound staging to create the voices properly in the middle. This will work from the sweet spot but not off-axis.

Reading what I have just written I can see that this is of little or no real help to you. Sorry about that - I have a mind that goes off on tangents sometimes!!!

[maxg]

I am not sure on the comparison you are asking me to make. I have not heard the RF5, only the RF3 and the RF7.

In simple terms comparing the Heresy to either of the RF's I prefered the sound of the Heresy on both mids and highs but they dont compete on bass.

This is not a problem for me as I have a sub which provides even more bass than either of the RF speakers.

It is an interesting problem when talking about a surround sound system. Ultimately the Heresy can be matched to a sub (as above) but more normally than in a 2 channel system (in other words it is more common to incorporate a sub into a surround sound system than it is into a 2 channel system).

In that setup they would make great fronts and IMHO provide better highs and mids than the RF options.

The problem is that there is no dedicated centre channel designed to provide a proper tonal match. This is not the case with RF speakers which have their own specially made centre channel.

Of course there are options - like a third Heresy for the centre but it is less than ideally shaped to stand on top of most TV's. You could even do with no centre channel and rely on the sound staging to create the voices properly in the middle. This will work from the sweet spot but not off-axis.

Reading what I have just written I can see that this is of little or no real help to you. Sorry about that - I have a mind that goes off on tangents sometimes!!!

[mobile homeless]

Ummmm....HEll? Maxie? You there?

Not too hard a decision to me what to do first... Those Sansui's were on ebay awhile back. I believe thy went for an average price of $25. Some idiot just offered you $1500 for said Sansui. Can you COUNT how fast it would take to get Sansui Beasts and do a "service" for the needy chap? As soon as he said "$1500" I thought you were going to say S O L D !!!

Unless we are talking about some sort of heavy conversion factor, one thing is clear. That freak NEEDS SOME SANSUI and you are the man to GIVE them to him!

kh

ps-On the speaker front, consider other options outside of Klipsch

[NOSValves]

Mobile,

^{ps-On the speaker front, consider other options outside of Klipsch}

Blasphemy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[maxg]

Kelly,

Were these speakers mine I probably would have done. As it is my brother-in-law gave them to me and would take a dim view of me selling them, expecially as these speakers were bought by her father way back when and are now viewed as something of an heirloom.

Trust me - the thought crossed my mind.

As it happens Heresy's dont do too badly here either. I had them up for the comparitive bargain price of $900 (here). I think you will find they are somewhat cheaper in the US 2nd hand...

BTW - there was no way I was going to write about other speakers on this forum although to be honest the thought had crossed my mind. The high end show is coming up and I plan to do some serious listening to see if anything catches my ear.

The problem is something often does but comes with a whole new set of issues of its own. Did I ever tell you about the Final 0.3's???

[dubai2000]

Max,

Kelly's suggestion concerning the SANSUI crossed my mind too, but the I read your next post-too bad ($$ speaking LOL).

What surprises me is that you completely rule out the La Scala. They were the very first Klipsch speaker I encountered and after only a song or two I KNEW what kind of speaker would be for me. As luck had it I ended up with a set of Khorns, but whenever I have a chance to to listen to this La Scala/Marantz 8B/ Cello ss preamp combo I am impressed by the clarity of the sound. Harshness? Not to my ears - it's more a case of what goes in, must come out!

Especially bearing in mind that you plan to look into SET amps (and the fact that you already gotyourself a good/musical sub) I would give those speakers a second try. I think you might like them better a second time round. I have never listened to Cornwalls, but if I didn't have those corner babies it would certainly be a set of La Scalas.

Wolfram

And don't forget ALK crossovers as a possible (and very rewarding) upgrade!

I have read your postings concerning DSOTM - so I suppose I'll have to be patient, but thanks for looking!!!

[maxg]

Assuming you are right Dubai and I could tame the LaScala's I still have the problem that they are simply too big.

I am thinking now that various people at the ACA event thought the highs too rolled off and a couple suggested that the Crossovers would benefit from some work. They seemed to think the capacitors could be fried, or at least not functioning correctly.

Tony has an electronics guru friend that might be able to help there. It shouldnt cost too much to find out if more can be had out the Sansui's before I give up the ghost on them completely...

If I can get the clarity of the Heresy out of them without losing their current strengths I will be one happy man - till the time comes for the next upgrade anyway.

[Mike Lindsey]

Max,

When you heard the La Scala's, was that with SS or tubes? Was vinyl also involved? Like Dubai, I don't think they were setup correctly. Mine are not harsh at all (of course, I'm using ALK's and now Altec 511B squawkers), even when playing CD's. I prefer vinyl however. Just curious...

Mike

[dbflash]

Max,

I have enjoyed reading your comments and seeing the updates of your daughter's pictures over the last year.

I too am interested about your thoughts about the Lascala's. I think I remember you went over to a friends house to listen to them.

I have found this out so far about my upgrade from Heresy's to Lascala's.

System sound wonderful. Same system, but added Lascala's. Couldn't listen to one cd without my ears hurting. Speaker placement and changing out speaker wire. I now like the Lascala's better than my Heresy's.

Give them another chance.

I will say they are big. They sound much better "to me" on stands (I now have the tweeter at ear level).

I only listen to Cd's at this time. Maybe if I was back to listening to albums I would chunk the Lascala's.

Danny

[dubai2000]

Max,

yes, La Scalas are big so I understand if this is a problem (WAF?, but in case you somehow manage to re-arrange your room to fit them in...

Reading what has been said concerning your current speakers by the ACA crowd I would also give the Heresy another go. I am sure there are other good speakers out there (apart from Klipsch), but for myself I can hardly imagine ever going 'back' to anything else - perhaps in a second system in my study - but in terms of clarity I find them quite unique (though I lack other horn experiences). A while ago I managed to sell my previous set of speakers (Quad ESL 63) but before doing so I listened to them for a few days. Good -in a way even excellent speakers- but simply no comparison in being able to create the impression of being there (provided the recording permits). To my ears Khorns or La Scalas simply remove another veil (which you might noteven notice as existing) from the music. But obviously hearing is very subjective - just remember that our ears can be trained far more easily/quickly than any other sense. Also one's listening habits do change, nevertheless I am rather sure that my current set up is basically it. Any addition (i.e. my vintage tube amps or a possible phono stage) is just for the fun of it and less a necessity as of old.

Anyway, my $0.02: don't give up on Klipsch yet, especially if you plan to upgrade your amp.

Wolfram

[Deang]

I agree with Wolfram. The ears/brain can get used to something new very quickly. I've said many times that if the music is clean, the ears will adjust.

It's a shame a Klipsch dealer won't let you borrow a set of RF7's for a few hours, or let you buy a set on the condition you can return them immediately if you don't like them.

[Mike Lindsey]

----------------

On 11/14/2002 1:28:15 PM dbflash wrote:

I will say they are big. They sound much better "to me" on stands (I now have the tweeter at ear level).

I only listen to Cd's at this time. Maybe if I was back to listening to albums I would chunk the Lascala's.

Danny

----------------

I too noticed a big difference when I had the midrange horn at ear level. Unlike Danny, however, I am using an Altec 511B horn that sits on top of the cabinet. I would have to think by putting them on stands would reduce the bass some but don't know for sure. Danny, do you have pictures of the stands?

Quite the contrary regarding the vinyl statement. I would think with the extra dynamics, the La Scala's bring out the best in vinyl...

Mike

[dbflash]

Mike,

I don't have any pictures yet.

I was also worried about the bass. After putting the speakers on the stands I had tighter and more bass than I had when they were on the floor.

The stands are made out of 3/4" birch plywood and 2x4's. The stands are 14" tall.

The speakers sit on a plywood platform. The platform is filled with 100lbs of sand.

I think if my floor was on a concrete slab instead of floating ( I have a crawl space underneath my floors)the bass would have been good.

By raising the speakers 14" the tweeters are now at ear level. It really made a difference. Before I raised them my system sounded good if I was in another room or if I was sitting on the floor.

Between my Rega/Marantz cd player and Wrights mt system is laid back. I just ordered a pair of Alpha Core AG1's speaker wire. The good thing about this is if I don't like them I can send them back. The guy I'm buying my stuff from now (fsaudioweb.com) is using Lascala's and Wright amps in one of his systems.

I will report back. I am also trying to buy a Digital camera so I can pictures of my system.

Danny

[Invidiosulus]

Prepare for Blasphemy

I have always been partial to the JBL 4311 studio monitors.

A friend of mine has a pair of the Sansui speakers and compared to theJBL's they seem to have a less defined midrange.

In some ways I like the sound of JBL's over the heresies at lower volumes but I think that the sensitivity of the Heresies and their ability to play cleanly at LOUD volumes helps them win out over the 4311's. Although I still really wish I had a pair of the 4311's. It is still difficult to compare these speakers as you said due to the fact that they each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Thinking about it I've been comparing apples to oranges and grapefruit so to speak, my heresies are running off my ss yamaha HTR-5540, my dad's jbl 4311's sound great on his dynaco ST-70, and my friends sansui are on a cheap optimus receiver from ratshack

None the less I would give the JBL's a listen if you can over there in Greece.

these are on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=800825669

Oh well just my two cents.

btw, are those heresy 2's that you have, seeing as how the components are mounted on the front of the baffle? Mine are rear mounted and I was curious as to the difference.

Peace, Josh

[maxg]

OK - my take on the LaScala - PLEASE DONT GET UPSET!!!!

Firstly a caveat : One of the major diffences between Greece and the US, for example, is the way that properties are constructed. Timber frame properties are almsot unknown in Greece. About 99% of properties are solid concrete constructions designed to withstand earthquakes. Floors are generally marble.

One result of this, expecially in Summer when carpets are removed is that rooms tend to be excessively bright giving even relatively mild speakers / tweeters a shrill quality to their sound that can be quite unpleasant.

For the record when I first bought the Heresy's I had them mated to a Yamaha receiver and then to a Rotel power amp with the Yamaha acting as a pre. Yamaha's tend to have a bright sound anyway but mated up in the latter configuration the highs on some recordings could cut cloth.

My gradual move to tubes has been influenced as much as anything by the constant quest to soften the sound. This has been achieved so effectively that most people are astonished to discover that I am in fact running horn loaded speakers.

Every audiophile comments, when visiting my house, that my speaker placement is strange, if not simply incorrect. The funny thing is that whilst under normal circumstances they are right, in my house they are not. I spent some considerable time playing with placement and came to the following conclusions for the Heresy:

1. Placing almost any horn loaded speaker on the marble floor creates such a harsh sound nothing can salvage the situation.

2. Raising the speakers and keeping the Tweeters below ear level helps but the bass reduces dramatically in intensity.

3. Having the tweeters at ear level re-introduces a harshness to the sound.

4. Having the tweeters above ear level works the best. The highs soften again whilst the bass becomes stronger as the woofer is now at ear level.

With the LaScala the optimal solution for the Heresy cannot be applied, at least in my house. They are much bigger and heavier and would require a sizable, solid box to mount them on. This would result in 2 speaker columns about 6 feet high in my living room - i.e. slightly less acceptable than having a tree in your living room and a couple of dogs.

I am interested to hear of Scala's mounted on stands - it is the first time I have heard of this option.

When I heard the Scalas it was with a reasonable digital front end (separate DACS, jitter prevention devices and so on) with a tube pre and some kind of tube amps I cant remember. The Scalas were positoned well away from the walls and toed in properly, but they were standing on a marble floor.

You want me to summarize the sound - Bass muddy and weak, mids indistinct (and weak) and chalk on a blackboard treble. The sound was incomparibly worse than my Heresy setup. The only advantage was image size. The soundstage was also rather too vague with images drifting around according to the note they were playing.

Since that hearing I have spoken to several people here who have tried out the LaScala's and none have been happy with the result. The LaScala has something of a legendary status here as being difficult to drive well in our environment. In fact, various audiophiles from the club bought it for precisely that reason reckoning that they could tame the beast - to my knowledge none succeeded.

I am quite prepared to accept that it can be made to work brilliantly in the right environment, with wooden floors and generally less bright rooms. Maybe it could even work well in Winter here - with the carpets down, but in summer?

Sadly I haveto conclude that the Scala is not for me. If I had corners in my living room, and a lot more space I would try KHorns. The Horn is sufficiently large for it to be far enough away form the floor to sound right. The bass could still be boomy but it seems others have managed to control that so I see no reason I couldnt.

Of course the fact that they cost $20,000 here new as opposed to $7,000 in the US doesnt help their cause.

[dubai2000]

Obviously your ears (and environment) must be the judge what's right for you and what isn't. If the La Scala were okay (that is original speakers, crossover)you might consider the cables used to connect them. When I got my Khorns the squawker and tweeter were connected to the xovers via some Kimber wire (a 'small' model in black and brown). Changing this with some (cheap) Ortofon cable certainly tamed the the tweater a bit (that was in pre-ALK days). I know that some people don't believe in this cable thing, but to my ears it worked. Another point is the question of floor. Yes, marble will be a problem, but what about a rug? Another option is treating the ceiling with some kind of dampening device - I have been told that can help a lot as well (being somwhat closer to the tweater). A final thought: You didn't listen to those speakers in your own home. My experience is that evaluating gear takes time and is best done in familiar surroundings. It is as if being at home makes me concentrate more easily on changes I might detect (and don't underestimate the influence of the listening room anyway!). So you might call me stubborn, but something stikes me as being strange about the La Scala experience you've made. Try them in your own listening room and make sure everything else (cables, polarity etc.) is in good order. I admit to being biased because the La Scala were my first horn experience, but I simply can't believe that what sounded so good was not due to the speakers too!

Wolfram

[Mike Lindsey]

----------------

On 11/15/2002 2:58:50 AM maxg wrote:

When I heard the Scalas it was with a reasonable digital front end (separate DACS, jitter prevention devices and so on) with a tube pre and some kind of tube amps I cant remember. The Scalas were positoned well away from the walls and toed in properly, but they were standing on a marble floor.

You want me to summarize the sound - Bass muddy and weak, mids indistinct (and weak) and chalk on a blackboard treble. The sound was incomparibly worse than my Heresy setup. The only advantage was image size. The soundstage was also rather too vague with images drifting around according to the note they were playing.

----------------

Max,

I have found by having them closer to the walls (about 12") dramatically increses the bass response. Mine are only -2db at 40hz, and -8db at 30hz (I'm going on memory here). I live in Florida, so my floors are concrete, and I have berber carpeting on top of that. Here is a shot of the Altec's sitting on top of the La Scala's (the tweeters are below the midrange and sound quite good)...

Having the midrange at ear level made a huge difference in my room. The wider dispersion from the 511B didn't hurt either. I think you would change your tune regarding this speaker if you had a chance to hear my setup. But I certainly understand... it's not for everybody.

Mike