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boricua2480

Dirac vs a Xilica for KPT-942's

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I've got a Lexicon MC-10 with Dirac Live 3 and I'm wondering if its similar to what you get with a Xilica XP4080 or REW? I'll be integrating some KPT-942's soon for front L/R and wonder if Dirac will do the trick or if i need REW or a Xilica to handle it. 

 

If a Xilica is needed, does anyone on here do services for remote tuning or in home tuning? I don't have the time to figure it out at the moment. 

 

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Are there passive cross overs or not? That's the $1,000,000 question. 

 

I am not sure of any existing AVR that can do an active XO around 500Hz where you would need it. 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, bribassguy said:

Are there passive cross overs or not? That's the $1,000,000 question. 

 

I am not sure of any existing AVR that can do an active XO around 500Hz where you would need it. 

 

 

Ok perfect. Your question of my question gave me the answer. Lol Thanks man! No it doesn't have active xovers. Thats what I was confused on what are the differences. Pefect. And I saw in another thread that the audio tuning magician of our time, @Chris A is willing to do tuning for pay so once i get it all setup.

 

I'll have plenty more questions, but ultimately will hire big Chris to do his thing. There's some things I'm interested in, such as how to accurately fine tune gear like this but I'd rather learn A.) from a pro in the field, and B.) I'd like to play around and learn on my own time AFTER I've had it tuned and enjoyed it for awhile. I'd rather not spend the next year trying to get it all worked out and have mediocre sound until then ya know?

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I believe once you have all the pieces together, you can be very close in a few days.

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19 hours ago, boricua2480 said:

...@Chris A is willing to do tuning for pay...

While it is true that I've helped quite a few Klipsch forum members (and others) to dial-in their loudspeakers using REW measurements and DSP crossovers, it is not true that I take money to do it.  I just wanted to clarify that point. 

 

While I am aware that there are people that apparently take money to do this sort of thing, I'm also aware that those individuals either work for companies that make the DSP hardware, or are freelancing DSP experts that use more expensive and powerful signal processing applications (and computing resources including PCs) running for-profit DSP applications like Acourate, and JRiver, etc.).  My niche is currently in using commonly available DSP crossovers running IIR (i.e., "PEQ") filters to achieve the same audible results--at considerably lower cost to the owner.

 

While FIR filters used in those higher priced applications can provide even lower phase growth than IIR filters available in off-the-shelf DSP crossovers, I have found that there is a subjective breakpoint in attaining loudspeaker phase flatness that doesn't require FIR filtering for horn-loaded loudspeakers, such as Jubilees, MEHs (such as Danley Synergies), MWM-based and KPT-1515-based loudspeaker stacks, La Scalas, Belles, and Khorns. 

 

Additionally, I've found that many hybrid horn-loaded HF/direct radiating bass (such as Cornwall, Forte, Chorus, Heresy, and the balance of the bookshelf and floor-standing Klipsch home theater loudspeakers) respond to the same techniques to a degree such that the need for FIR filtering is either non-existent or low enough to preclude its use.

 

Chris

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On 9/12/2020 at 8:15 AM, Chris A said:

While it is true that I've helped quite a few Klipsch forum members (and others) to dial-in their loudspeakers using REW measurements and DSP crossovers, it is not true that I take money to do it.  I just wanted to clarify that point. 

 

While I am aware that there are people that apparently take money to do this sort of thing, I'm also aware that those individuals either work for companies that make the DSP hardware, or are freelancing DSP experts that use more expensive and powerful signal processing applications (and computing resources including PCs) running for-profit DSP applications like Acourate, and JRiver, etc.).  My niche is currently in using commonly available DSP crossovers running IIR (i.e., "PEQ") filters to achieve the same audible results--at considerably lower cost to the owner.

 

While FIR filters used in those higher priced applications can provide even lower phase growth than IIR filters available in off-the-shelf DSP crossovers, I have found that there is a subjective breakpoint in attaining loudspeaker phase flatness that doesn't require FIR filtering for horn-loaded loudspeakers, such as Jubilees, MEHs (such as Danley Synergies), MWM-based and KPT-1515-based loudspeaker stacks, La Scalas, Belles, and Khorns. 

 

Additionally, I've found that many hybrid horn-loaded HF/direct radiating bass (such as Cornwall, Forte, Chorus, Heresy, and the balance of the bookshelf and floor-standing Klipsch home theater loudspeakers) respond to the same techniques to a degree such that the need for FIR filtering is either non-existent or low enough to preclude its use.

 

Chris

Gotcha, misunderstood your post in another thread. Is there a type of title for someone who can do what you do with tuning so I could look if anyone local has the skills, highly doubtful, but worth a try. Even the local home theater dealer doesn't do that sort of thing nor do they have "a guy" for that either and it seems super involved and time is an issue for me. 

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You'd be looking for a PA system or studio engineer type of person that dials in permanent installs for hi-fi sound. 

 

In the case of Mitch Barnett (the guy that does this sort of thing using the higher priced tools and hardware, and who took the effort to write a book on the subject: Accurate Sound Reproduction Using DSP), he is in the Pacific Northwest , IIRC.  Here is his website URL: https://accuratesound.ca/

 

I offer my free services via email, i.e., the owner takes the REW measurements and emails to me, I email back the DSP crossover settings...and those folks within reasonable driving distance from my location (subject to current social distancing restrictions) I can support directly on-site.  It looks like Mitch is doing the same thing I'm doing using remote measurements by the owners--looking at his website.

 

Chris

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4 hours ago, Chris A said:

You'd be looking for a PA system or studio engineer type of person that dials in permanent installs for hi-fi sound. 

 

In the case of Mitch Barnett (the guy that does this sort of thing using the higher priced tools and hardware, and who took the effort to write a book on the subject: Accurate Sound Reproduction Using DSP), he is in the Pacific Northwest , IIRC.  Here is his website URL: https://accuratesound.ca/

 

I offer my free services via email, i.e., the owner takes the REW measurements and emails to me, I email back the DSP crossover settings...and those folks within reasonable driving distance from my location (subject to current social distancing restrictions) I can support directly on-site.  It looks like Mitch is doing the same thing I'm doing using remote measurements by the owners--looking at his website.

 

Chris

Ok thats what i was thinking,, and those types of jobs don't exist here so I'd have a hard time finding anyone that has the expertise you have.. I've already got a umik-1 that I used with Dirac Live so I guess all I'd need to get is a Xilica and a mini DSP and run the measurements and then contact you at that point? 

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1 hour ago, RandyH000 said:

so , you''ll no longer be using the Lexicon MD-10

Can you elaborate? The MC-10 is my pre-pro, so I kinda need it. 

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1 hour ago, boricua2480 said:

The MC-10 is my pre-pro, so I kinda need it. 

Great choice ,  it's a great Pre-Pro ,  from Harman  , and the XP 4080 is an Excellent matchup

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9 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

Great choice ,  it's a great Pre-Pro ,  from Harman  , and the XP 4080 is an Excellent matchup

Ok just making sure lol. I love it. Its very bare bones as far as features, GUI, etc, but music and movies sound SO MUCH better than the Integra DTR-60.6 and Onkyo RZ820 I was using. Plus I got a deal on it so I am happy with it. Once I get the Xilica and once my 402's get delivered I think it'll be magic. 

 

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Question 1...is the XP4080 the best choice for my setup and for the best sound? What about their XD or Neutrino lines? Why the XP 4080 vs other options? I genuinely am confused on these and pros/cons on one vs the other.

 

Question 2...does Xilica come with EQ also? Couldn't find that info on their site. 

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1) The XP series of crossovers have IIR filters and analog inputs (only).  The XD series adds FIR filtering (albeit a limited filter length capability), and an AES/EBU input (digital): the costs are higher to reflect this added capability.  The Neutrino series are Dante-compatible and generally are used in larger installations (a.k.a., "live sound") having multiple loudspeakers, inputs, outputs, network support and other DSP support.  Generally, they aren't very good choices for home hi-fi requirements.

 

2) All DSP crossovers (that I'm aware of) have EQ, selectable crossover filter types, frequencies and filter slopes (orders), channel delay, fast limiters, compression, channel gain controls, and a buffer to store preset configurations on the crossover (with unlimited presets available via USB or Ethernet networking) and graphic EQ capability.  Xilica "X" series have 8 available PEQ filters per input channel and another 8 per each output channel (input channels are assignable to output channels).  They also provide a full 31-band graphic equalizer capability (which I don't use), and a capacity to store 30 different named presets on the unit. 

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

1) The XP series of crossovers have IIR filters and analog inputs (only).  The XD series adds FIR filtering (albeit a limited filter length capability), and an AES/EBU input (digital): the costs are higher to reflect this added capability.  The Neutrino series are Dante-compatible and generally are used in larger installations (a.k.a., "live sound") having multiple loudspeakers, inputs, outputs, network support and other DSP support.  Generally, they aren't very good choices for home hi-fi requirements.

 

2) All DSP crossovers that I'm aware of have EQ, selectable crossover filter types, frequencies and filter slopes (orders), channel delay, fast limiters, compression, channel gain controls, and a buffer to store preset configurations on the crossover (with unlimited presets available via USB or Ethernet networking) and graphic EQ capability.  Xilica "X" series have 8 available PEQ filters per input channel and another 8 per each output channel (input channels are assignable to output channels).  They also provide a full 31-band graphic equalizer capability (which I don't use), and a capacity to store 30 different named presets on the unit. 

 

Chris

Dude, you're the man Chris. That's better info than their website offers. Last question about this for the time being...based on the setup below, which XD model would you recommend? 


Pre/Pro - Lexicon MC-10

Amps - two Bryston 8B-ST's + Lexicon DD-8 

Front L/R - Klipsch KPT-942's

Center - Klipsch KPT-942

Side & Back Surrounds - Klipsch KPT-200's

Atmos - Klipsch R-1650-C's

Subwoofers - 2 JTR Captivator 4000-ULF

Conditioner - Panamax MR5100


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4 hours ago, boricua2480 said:

..based on the setup below, which XD model would you recommend? 

 

...Front L/R - Klipsch KPT-942's

Center - Klipsch KPT-942

Side & Back Surrounds - Klipsch KPT-200's

Atmos - Klipsch R-1650-C's

Subwoofers - 2 JTR Captivator 4000-ULF...

The KPT-942s (left, center, right) will take six output channels and three input channels.  If you are only bi-amping the fronts (left, center, right), you'll need one Xilica XP-4080 and 12 total channels of amplification (including subs).  That would mean that your surrounds and height channels (Atmos) would continue to be mono-amped as they are.

 

If you are thinking about bi-amping the surrounds--they would take eight output channels and four input channels.  That equates to an additional Xilica XP-4080 instead of one in the front-only bi-amping configuration, above.  I have found that EQing the surrounds to flat SPL response is a really big deal. 

 

Getting the surrounds to flat phase response using bi-amping (left and right surrounds, but not left back and right back surrounds) is also audible for the best hi-fi surround music sources.  It's not very audible on movies, however.

 

The subwoofers take two output channels and two input channels, all handled without change from your current setup. 

______________________________

 

I don't count the Atmos channels in this scenario because they are usually mono-amped channels used exclusively for movies.  When music sources that require hi-fi operation of the height channels appear in greater numbers, that portion of the setup can be converted at that time.

 

Chris

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8 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The KPT-942s (left, center, right) will take six output channels and three input channels.  If you are only bi-amping the fronts (left, center, right), you'll need one Xilica XP-4080 and 12 total channels of amplification (including subs).  That would mean that your surrounds and height channels (Atmos) would continue to be mono-amped as they are.

 

If you are thinking about bi-amping the surrounds--they would take eight output channels and four input channels.  That equates to an additional Xilica XP-4080 instead of one in the front-only bi-amping configuration, above. 

 

The subwoofers take two output channels and two input channels, all handled without change from your current setup. 

______________________________

 

I don't count the Atmos channels in this scenario because they are usually mono-amped channels used exclusively for movies.  When music sources that require hi-fi operation of the height channels, that portion of the setup can be converted at that time.

 

Chris

Interesting,  so you'd recommend the XP-4080 over the XD-4080 for the LCR and subs? I would've guessed I'd need an XD model like the XD-8080. 

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What do you need the XD over the XP to do?  The price is at least 50% higher--perhaps 100%.

 

Chris

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1 minute ago, Chris A said:

What do you need the XD over the XP to do?  The price is at least 50% higher--perhaps 100%.

 

Chris

Thats actually the exact answer I needed. Thanks for all the info man, I'll be in touch once its all hooked up and ready for your assistance. Great info! 

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