basic tube amp question

[Radiohead]

I have some money laying around that I would like to use to invest in a quality tube pre-amp and power amp but am not quite sure which direction to go in concerning my listening choices.

I mainly listen to electronic music/acid jazz/dance although I also find myself listening to quite a bit of jazz and classical. I like a good, crisp, warm powerful sound but don't exactly know how to word my description in appropriate audiophile terms. I hear many people rave about 2A3's and also 300B's but I am not quite sure which would be better suited for my tastes. It seems as though most that like the 2A3 are mainly jazz and classical listeners with an appreciation for a "live sound." Am I correct in this assumption? Does this mean that it would not be properly suited for the "electronic" sound?

I apologize for the nubey questions but am just trying to learn more and more about electron tubes on a daily basis. So far I am very pleased with my HF-81 but am desiring something a bit more powerful.

Ryan

I guess it would help if I listed my budget. I would like to spend no more than 3-4k on everything; tubes, wire, components.

[prodj101]

you could always buy one of our company (GAW) tube amplifiers. heres a picture. The one you would receive would look much nicer too, we guarnantee it! Our tube amplifiers are awsome. that model in particular, has very large filter capacitors (2 of them are 2,700 uf), so they have alot of dynamic headroom. They also have very beautiful chassis, as you can see in the picture. That model is essentially 2 mono block amplifiers on a single chassis, thats why there is 2 of everything. It gives about 15 watts per channel, which is plenty to drive any klipsch speakers except the smaller ones. It is EL84 based, using 2 per channel. The asking price is $500. Being a saxophone player, I also listen to alot of jazz. Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, and Cannon Ball have all sounded wonderful on this threw our speakers too. We can guarantee that you will not find better performance at this price, or much higher.

[Tom Mobley]

and to think, some accuse Al K. of pushing product on the forum. This folks, is what pushing product looks like. Can anybody here post a link to Al K. doing something like this? Even remotely like this?

Jeez

Tom

[prodj101]

lol, no need to get angry, he asked for a product, I gave it to him. lets see you try to start an audio company and NOT use this bulitin board in any way.

[Tom Mobley]

Ryan,

Is your HF-81 working right? It should make at least 12 watts/side, enough to drive a set of 75 KHorns to pretty hefty levels, entertain the people on the next block, that sort of thing. I count something like 115dB, into the hearing damage range. There's some nice Scotts (like this 299D ) available that will push 25-30 watts/side for a lot less than 3-4 large.

How big is the room your KHorns are in?

Tom

[Radiohead]

Tom,

My Eico was working about 95% I suppose until about three months ago when I tried to get a look at the inside of the transformer. Now I can't even get the damn screws back on the bolts and, considering it needs a once over, I haven't had the joy of listening to it lately. I would like to be skilled enough to fix it myself but unfortunately that isn't the case. Right now I am in a holding pattern because I haven't found anyone locally to do the job.

As far as listening situations are concerned it isn't optimal to say the least. I have now resorted to some spare solid state Yamaha receiver HTR-5240 The room they are in right now is only about 10' x 12' and I realize that they are not nearly far enough apart. The Eico has great sound and volume but I recently had a friend hookup his McIntosh 240 and the speakers produced a much "fuller" sound. I honestly didn't expect to "feel" the sound that much.

So now I am in state of confusion. I like the Eico, and want to get it working again, but I also want to try something new.

Suggestions?

[Tom Mobley]

did you look at that Scott 299D I linked to above? those things are pretty nice, and there's a guy here on this board who can work on them, NOS440, his name is Craig. He might even have one available.

I'd be willing to look at your HF-81, I have one also. Which transformer is it that's apart? I can probably fix it, no big deal. I'm in Phoenix/Glendale Az at 85304, where are you? email me at tmoble@earthlink.net we'll set something up. I like fixing stuff, gets my mind off work.

Tom

[Deang]

Actually, Craig will work on the Eicos as well -- but I think he breaks out in a rash when he does it.

Well, I guess I'm biased -- but the AE-3 or AE-3 DJH would work out real well for you. http://www.upscaleaudio.com

If mine were ever to croak for some reason -- I'm sure I would just turn around and buy another.

Amp wise -- it comes down to the size of your room and how loud you like to listen. Personally, with your musical tastes -- I would go for a 300b if eyeing the SET thing.

So, room size, SPL, and budget. Fill us is.

As far as the G.A.W. offering goes -- we still need more information on these things. The type of circuit, quality of the parts used, layout of the parts under the amp, warranty (what happens if one of your amps takes out a pair of K-horns). I'm sorry, but some of us here drive some pretty pricey stuff, and I for one -- am not all that comfortable doing business with anyone that doesn't have an established reputation for quality sound and reliability. You might have to send one of these amps out for FREE, just so someone can do an evaluation and review of the product.

[NOSValves]

Yup I rebuild almost any tube amp. What transformer did you take apart and why ??

Craig

[artto]

Before you invest any more money in other equipment, why dont you get those K-horns in a proper room where they belong? K-horns not only need room corners...they need SOME ROOM! 10 X 12 FEET? What is this, an unused bedroom or something? While the Klipschorn may have been intended for both commercial & domestic use, it was also intended to be listened to at ranges greater than 3 meters. A room that small is so prone to multiple room mode resonance problems, especially with a speaker like the K-horn, I have to wonder what it is you like about it. I guarantee you, you have not ever heard what those speakers are capable of in a room of that size & proportions regardless of the associated equipment. It doesnt do the K-horns (& therefore any remaining high quality components) any justice. Seems to me you could achieve far better performance with a different speaker that is more appropriate in a room that small. K-horns may be many things to many people, but near-field monitors they are not! The K-horns need some room to breathe. To put it another way, what youre doing is kind of like trying to put a Ferrari engine & drivetrain in a 1978 Chevette (whats the point?).

[Colin]

It is hard to imagine a pair of Khorns crammed into a room that size, but dont ever sell them! I am sure that the room reflections are causing some problems for you and if you have money laying around, you should consider spending some of it on dampening those reflections. Also play around with tilting the big old horns forward a ¼ to ½ inch, so they point more directly at your head. These adjustments can make a big improvement in the sound.

The reputation of the old iron, like the Eico with its large transformers, is excellent. That unit is certainly worth restoring to its best capabilities. Only after it is rejuvenated, would I explore other alternatives. Since tube amplifiers fail slowly (their sound deteriorates rather than quits completely), it is often difficult to know when a part needs replacing or upgrading. If your unit has not been overhauled recently, most likely it is time. While a SS receiver can have some better impedance control over the low bass frequencies, there is nothing magical about them with big old horns. I have heard the superlative Pass X250 amplifier on my Cornwalls and even cheap Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours can compete with them in mid and upper range tone (though yes, the SS sound was fuller).

Instead, when your Eico is refurbished, I would not be surprised at all to hear you exclaim about how great the combination is - together they make magic, even in cramped quarters. If that is not enough for you (and I think it will be), the delicacy of the 2A3 is perfectly suited to the ultra-extreme sensitivity of the Khorns. People who like the 300B tubes however, are usually looking for even more power than the EL-34 or El-84 tubes. They do not have ultra-sensitive big old horns.

Having said all of that, I belong to the school of thought that believes that even big old horns, capable of fairly smooth reach down to 30Hz, can benefit from an active solid-state loudspeaker dedicated to the lowest frequencies, a subwoofer. If you have some money laying around after dampening the room and rebuilding the Eico, consider a RSW series to add some punch to the midbass.

[T2K]

Dang artto, well said. That's one thing many people never consider, the room.

Keith

[Radiohead]

"10 X 12 FEET? What is this, an unused bedroom or something?"

LOL. As a matter of fact yes it is. That response was one of the most hilarious I have read in quite a long time.

Yes unfortunately right now they are in, like I said earlier, not such ideal listening conditions. I realize that they are suffering but will not be for much longer. I will be moving to a larger house soon and have plans for them. For now this is the only place they can sit where they are safe from "foreign substances."(AKA-Pet fluids)

When I purchased them from their first owner last year he had them set up in a room about twenty feet apart tucked well up in to the corners. He had some kind of McIntosh setup, monoblocks which I don't know the model number of, and a Mac preamp as well. I only had to listen for a minute or two before I knew I was buying. The sound was incredible and moving unlike anything I had experienced and, for an hour or so, I had the opportunity to feel exactly what the speakers had to offer. Then I took them home and it was another story of course. The small room IS awful for these particular speakers.

Right now my plans are to have the system taken care of before, or as, I am moving in to my new place. I would also be very interested in getting the Eico working in top condition. I can't quite explain why I wanted to see inside the transformer, it kind of just happened. Then I realized I had made a mistake when I couldn't get everything back together again. Basically a huge amateur experience that sucked. The one I opened was, if you are looking at it from the front, the top right one.

For those that have knowledge in the matter, what does it typically cost to get the Eico's up to snuff? What would I be looking at parts and labor wise?

[artto]

Im going to have to take exception with Colins comments regarding tilting the big old horns forward a ¼quarter to one-half inch (sorry Colinbut everything else is cool though).

The proximity of the woofer horn to the walls at a corner has a significant effect on the frequency response of the Klipschorn (see Klipsch Dope From Hope publication Vol. 2, No 12, November 1961).

If the Klipschorn is not properly seated in a corner there will result a response dip in the region of 250-500 cycles per second in the Klipschorn woofer.

A one inch gap on one side can cause a 7 decibel loss at 500 cycles per second.

Where a fit cannot be affected, one may apply a flap of flexible but firm sheeting, such as U.S. Rubber Companys one-eight inch gasket.

Most important, however, is the fit against the corner.

Tilting the K-horns forward will result in an even more irregular frequency response, especially in a room this small (10x12), compounding the acoustical problems, not solving them.

[artto]

Well Radiohead, thats good to hear (pun intended). I bought my K-horns before I had a "proper room" for them too, although never a room that small. I was able to get a good "deal" on them at a time when there were fair trade laws in effect, so I went for it, knowing that they would eventually have a proper room built around them. Would you believe I paid $635 each for them in 1976? Hard to believe, isn't it?

By the way....just keep the EICO & put the money towards your new house/room. It will be money much better spent.

[mike stehr]

I took the bell cap off one of my Eico HF-12 power trannies once, to look at the windings for some dumb reason.

Except the cap went right back on.

The paper is discolored and burnt looking, the windings don't look to special, either.

I always suspected this trannie is on it's way out.

It still works fine, but it does have a mechanical buzzing.

The same amp has a leakey multisectional, so it really buzzes once it's warm.

Needless to say, these are shut down pending further work.

[NOSValves]

Radiohead,

^{For those that have knowledge in the matter, what does it typically cost to get the Eico's up to snuff? What would I be looking at parts and labor wise?}

Generally speaking parts and labor to rebuild the EICO would be about $125 to $200 it really depends on what type of parts you want to install. Now the transformer is another story I hope it can be saved. I would have to see it to say. If you want to ship it I'll check the unit over for free of coarse and give you a solid price on fixing her up. If it is a output transformer I have a spare set but sure would hate splitting them up.

Craig

[Radiohead]

Craig,

Thanks for the offer.

Why would simply taking the lid of the transformer harm it in anyway?

Ryan

[mike stehr]

It shouldn't.

Unless maybe one shifted the plates or something, but the laminate plates are varnished together.

[Radiohead]

Thanks for the help with this fellas and for answering my questions. I think I am going to have to strike a deal with Craig to buff up the Eico while I wait.