Tube amp and pre-amp with Turntable vs SS with DVD-A

[Manuel Delaflor]

I think that, at some point, one should listen to the real thing in order to know what is missing (or extra) in our gear. Of course that is almost irrelevant when talking about popular music, their performances are amplified so we never listen to the actual instruments.

In fact I think some people are so accustomed to the sound of recorded or live amplified music that they simply don't know what to expect from a system, they simply don't have the "ear memory" to compare a reproduction to the real thing. Maybe this is why some of them are "easy targets" who will believe any marketing campaigns when looking for something that sounds "realistic" or "accurate". They will trust the market because it is their only point of reference.

When I talk about the real thing I mean classical music concerts. Fortunately, 90% of the time I listen to classical music only and since I have listened a lot of live performances (an easy calculation makes me think I have attended more than 200 classical concerts), I think I know what to expect from a system.

Sure, my sistem not always sounds like the real thing, some recordings help, some others are a complete mess. Nevertheless I would say that I have a pretty good aproximation to the real thing.

[Randy Bey]

Michael,

from what I understand, "epistemological" refers to the process during child birth when the OB/Gyn performs a minor incision to facilitate childbirth.

And I agree, anyone who thinks their hifi does what a full orchestra does don't get out much.

But if they listen mostly to pop, then yes, their hifi will easily best the amplified crap that comes out of touring bands PA systems.

Live acoustic experiences are very hard to come by. I most recently attended a Leo Koettke performance at St. Paul Orchestra Hall; of course (of course of course of course) he played his acoustic six and 12 string guitars through some electronicly amplified drek. I shoulda known.

[artto]

well randy, I guess I'm going to have to put you to the challenge! And drop the gaunlet!

I guess I'll have to have an open house & you can hear for yourself.

I do live recording my friend & I think by now I certainly know what a 70 person chorale or full orchestra sounds like, in very specific halls no less.

By the way......being able to reproduce the sound of a full symphony orchestra is nothing new. It was done in the 1930's (see Audio Papers from Klipsch & Associates). And it can be done now.

I will be posting pictures of my room soon (hopefully). The server wasn't accepting them today. The file size may be too large (even though it says otherwise...have to wait for the klipsch webmaster)

AND DON'T YOU DARE IMPLY THAT "ANYONE WHO THINKS THEIR HI-FI DOES WHAT FULL ORCHESTRA DOES DON'T GET MUCH OUT OF IT". What kind of dumb**** statement is that? Jealous are you?

for a preview....I have 2 detail pics posted in the 2- channel - $25Kroom thread & the architectural thread.

Have a nice time pulling your foot out of your mouth

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/5/2002 5:46:15 PM Randy Bey wrote:

Michael,

from what I understand, "epistemological" refers to the process during child birth when the OB/Gyn performs a minor incision to facilitate childbirth.

----------------

Now that's just funny (ouch - maybe not)! As for Leo Koettke - I would have liked that anyway - I have some of his LPs and the CD Solo Guitar - love it. Sounds pretty good on the ol' SET system - now if I can just get me some full-range single driver speakers I'll be happy and complete... maybe

Regards,

~Michael~

PS - I tried to get that "full orchestra sound", but could not fit all the members of The Academy in my 16 x 12 x 8 room...

[Randy Bey]

artto,

until you have an old lady with diamonds and too much perfume sitting next to you while listening then you don't have the concert experience.

If you can't watch the cute tush of the viola player then you don't have the concert experience.

Now mind you I liken hifi to watching sports on TV. Being at the game you often can't see squat, it's often cold, the seats are hard and jerks all around you are making a lot of noise and drinking $5 paper cups of beer. At home you can watch the game on a big TV, enjoy instant replay, close ups and slo mo, etc. while in the comfort of your chair.

I had the pleasure of listening to a Firebird performance and realizing that I had the same venue on CD, a Dr. Johnson RR. I was thrilled at how close the hifi sounded. But not for a nano-second did I think there was an orchestra in my room, or that I was at the orchestra.

Surely you don't expect me to believe that you do.

And for the record, the quote should be anyone who thinks their hifi does what a full orchestra does don't get out much.

"Get out" means going to things like concerts.

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/6/2002 7:59:09 AM Randy Bey wrote:

...the cute tush of the viola player then you don't have the concert experience.

----------------

Gotta be careful - THAT can create woofer excursion due to unexpected voltage surge as a result of melting resisters

~Michael~

[artto]

Randy, my music system/room obviously sounds better than yours. Stop trying to argue so much & just accept it.

[Randy Bey]

Nope, I would say that I am simply not delusional, although I firmly believe that you think your hifi sounds like the real thing.

[mike stehr]

I geuss it's time to resort to phallic measurements.

Artto,

Does the Zen amp have the output tubes triode strapped?

Does it still have the SV83 output tubes? Or have you tried some 6BQ5's of any brands?

What Full-Range Drivers do you have in mind?

[akshobhyavajra]

----------------

On 12/6/2002 2:48:24 PM mike stehr wrote:

Does the Zen amp have the output tubes triode strapped?

Does it still have the SV83 output tubes? Or have you tried some 6BQ5's of any brands?

What Full-Range Drivers do you have in mind?

----------------

Yes - triode. Yes - still SV83. Yes - tried numerous 6BQ5 tubes , including Yugo/Orion EL84Y, Russian 6n14n-EBs, etc. - I like the Zen

best with the SVs...

The Full-Range Driver I have in mind is the Omega TS1 Standard (96 db),

which will work well in my little room.

I looked at the Horns by Ed, the Abby by Cain & Cain, and just other efficient speakers in general (Model 95 by Parker Audio, Triumph Sigs by Coincident, Rhapsody by Galante, etc.). I'm not into DIY - so I think

the little TS1s will do. Emailed Louis who is a great to deal with...

can't beat the 30 day in home trial....

Regards,

~Michael~

[mike stehr]

Sorry Micheal, I mistaken you for for Artto.

My apologies!

I'll have to look at the FR's you mentioned, I have some cheap and sensitive Norelco AD4201M's that seem to work well on vintage SE 6BQ5 amplifiers.

I would like to make cabinets someday for them, but they'll have to be huge.

Of course, my gear is cobbled vintage thrift store items.

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/6/2002 4:17:02 PM mike stehr wrote:

I'll have to look at the FR's you mentioned, I have some cheap and sensitive Norelco AD4201M's that seem to work well on vintage SE 6BQ5 amplifiers.

I would like to make cabinets someday for them, but they'll have to be huge.

Of course, my gear is cobbled vintage thrift store items.

----------------

Here is a link to the website:

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/

His FRs start at $399 a pair for the TS3 Standard, which uses a modified 5" Shielded Fostex ES - 93dB - good enough for most flee-power amps, since there is no crossover.

I'm gonna go for the TS1 @ 96dB since that's a bit better for opera and classical with my massive 1.8 watt amp

Ciao,

~Michael~

[artto]

Randy, I have to wonder where you listen to your live music. I recorded a live concert for a local chorale (60 persons) last night, accompanied by grand piano, flute, oboe, 5 octaves of Schulmerich bells, & assorted percussion. And I don't seem to recall any old ladies with too much perfume sitting next to me. Or anywhere in the audience for that matter. What kind people do you hang out with anyway man? LOL

And what side of the stage are you on that you can get clear view of that cute tush of the viola player? And what kind of position does she play that thing in that you have such a clear view?

I don't liken hi-fi to watching sports on TV. TV has a long way to go before it produces anything resembling a "holographic image" for the eyes. The current state of TV, I would liken more to the early days of sound reproduction...monaural, limited frequency response, high distortion, etc.

Hi-fi on the other hand, has progressed beyond that. May I suggest you do a little more homework and read the following publications as primers:

"Basic Principals of Sterephonic Sound" William B. Snow ("one of the great papers on audio." Paul W. Klipsch)

"Auditory Perspective-System Adaptation" E.H. Bedell & Iden Kerney

"Auditory Perspective-Amplifiers" E.O. Scriven

"Auditory Perspective-Loudpeakers and Microphones" E.C. Wente & A.L. Thuras

"Auditory Perspective-Physical Factors" J.C. Steinberg & W.B. Snow

"Auditory Perspective-Basic Requirements" Harvey Fletcher

"Stereo Geometry Tests" Paul W. Klipsch

"Eight Cardinal Points in Loudspeakers for Sound Reproduction" Paul W. Klipsch

"Stereophonic Localization: An Analysis of Listener Reactions to Current Techniques" John M. Eargle

"Polarity, Phase and Geometry" Paul W. Klipsch

"Signal Mutuality in Stereo Systems" Paul W. Klipsch

"Experiments and Experiences in Stereo" Paul W, Klipsch

"Wide-Stage Stereo" Paul W. Klipsch

"Stereophonic Sound With Two Tracks, Three Channels by means of a Phantom Circut (2PH3)" Paul W. Klipsch

"Experiences In Stereophony" Paul W. Klipsch

Frankly, I don't care if YOU "believe" that I think my system is capable of sounding like the real thing or not. The fact of the matter is that's what other "qualified" listeners have said.

As far as I'm concerned, from my experience, the room is the first & the last link. Its also the one most over looked. And considering how much time & money people are spending on things like speaker & interconnect cables or a 2A3 tube amp verses the 300B, I propose to you that until you get the K-horns in a proper environment, you haven't even heard what all those other things sound like, much less what the K-horns can do.

[Randy Bey]

Artto,

I love you man.

I would be honored to hear your rig, but it's not likely to happen unless you live in Minnesota.

I agree about the room; I have done some (not as much as you presumably) work with it. I am blessed and cursed with a basement listening room with cement walls surrounded by a million tons of St. Paul wet clay. The size of the room and some minor work with absorbtion panels and bass traps are all I've done, mostly to address slap echoes but I don't think I have many room modes problems. The room itself is rather irregular in dimensions. I was going to ask you regarding yours -- you have non-flat surfaces to either side of your horns. I was told that the midrange depends on some room reflections to either side. I religously keep the walls flat and bare for several feet to either side of the horns. When listening does the music sound like it is inside your head instead of emanating from the speakers? That is the comment I hear most regarding mine.

I doubt that your hifi sounds much better than mine, mostly because I am not sure it's possible. I would love to be proven wrong. Doubt that I could do much about it until I make that second million (I gave up on the first).

[artto]

Randy, yes, you are correct, the K-horns need some room reflections to either side of the speaker to sound their best. And yes, my room currently has non-flat surfaces, primarily along the upper half of the walls on both sides & the front. The front & back of the room have the larger vertical diffusers/dampers. However, these are all reflective surfaces (but just not flat). The area to the sides of the bass horns are flat. The large Masonite diffusers in the front of the room are bowed about 12 from the lower portion of the wall & about 16 from the upper wall. The sound from the horns can pass behind them at that angle. There seems to be a fine line between keeping the surfaces reflective around the horns, & yet eliminating slap echo or flutter. Thats why I used the polycylindrical surfaces. It remains live, but it produces a much smoother & more distributed reflection pattern (ambience) while not allowing the initial reflections to interfere with the sound from the speaker. If the time domain of the initial reflections is too short (too soon) relative to the initial sound your ears hear from the speaker, you will experience a loss of clarity and definition. Actually, in its current revision, the panels are being twisted slightly from top to bottom with each panel stepping back a little further as you progress from the front corners to the back, or from the middle of the front wall to the sides. It makes the room look like its expanding, sort of like in an auditorium while keeping the room live sounding at low levels.

Interesting question about the sound emanating (from inside the head or from the speakers). Actually, its neither. It never sounds as though the sound is emanating from inside your head.

And regardless of the recording mix, the sound hardly ever seems to be emanating from the speakers. Its as if the speakers are just sitting there doing nothing. As if those things arent even speakers. There is no aural relationship between the sound and the speakers. There is basically a stage, a curtain or wall of sound that just seems to be emanating from pure space. The aural image is quite convincing in both depth & breath & localization across the stage and at times the sense of space seems to extend over your head (without the use of rear channels) just like in a real concert hall. Obviously, the image one gets is quite dependent on the recording. On many recordings, even if the sound is coming from far stage left for instance, on center with the speaker, you can turn your head & look at the speaker, and the sound does not appear to be coming from the speaker. It may sound like its coming from somewhere behind the speaker. It may sound like its emanating in front of the speaker. It may sound like its in the same space or plane as the speaker. But it doesnt appear to be coming from the speaker.

I dont know if youve taken a look at my room posts in the architectural thread yet. Youll see that the room gone thru some acoustical revisions over the years. Its now undergoing its fourth.

Do you actually have concrete walls for the interior surfaces of the room? I would think it would be very difficult to tame the acoustics. Also, if your room is very irregular, that should help with any low frequency mode problems. And also make it rather difficult to calculate the modes. You might want to take a look at this Excel spreadsheet used for calculating room modes & some aspects of reverberation. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/publications.htm I dont agree with everything this guy has to say but the spreadsheet is pretty straight forward & easy to use. The file is called mode1.xls highlighted in blue, scroll down the page.

[Randy Bey]

arrto,

actually only two walls are cement (plus the floor). The others are regular drywall.

The bass treats the drywalls as if they weren't there, so I think the speakers 'see' the whole basement.

I think PWK designed the khorn to be fairly immune to room reflections; at least that is what I remember reading once. But since horns 'beam' I put reflective panels where the k400s are aimed at the rear wall.

I think the end result is, in a word, glorious.

I have never heard better, and not even heard close to as good in many years.

[artto]

Randy, Im not sure where you are getting your information from. Actually, horns, dont beam (unless of course, they are designed to). It is a well known fact that the higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength is. The shorter the wavelength is, the greater the tendency for sound to beam (become more directional) In fact, one of the main reasons for using horns is to reduce beaming, to more uniformly expand the wave front across the desired angle required by the listening area. A horn is basically just a transformer by means of which the acoustic impedance is changed as a function of the ratio of the throat to mouth areas. This can be used to ones advantage if the horn is designed to project a wave front into the subtended angle required to cover the desired listening area.

The following is from A High Quality Loudspeaker of Small Dimensions Paul W. Klipsch, reprinted in The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America Vol. 17, No. 3, 254-258, January, 1946. Copyright 1945 by the American Institute of Physics. It was reprinted & included in Audio Papers from Klipsch & Associates. It describes the early high frequency horn designed for use with the Klipschorn, then a 2 way system:

Points of novelty are the expansion of the air column in a single plane followed by further expansion in two planes, to avoid beaming at the higher frequencies. A design was undertaken in which bends were kept to a minimum, care was taken to keep wave fronts in exact phase, the angle of radiation was chosen to cover the listening field as well as to give the same solid angle as that of a corner woofer.

The Appendix to this publication describes the Bibliography of literature pertinent to horn speakers. These deal with efficiency, power requirements within various frequency ranges, wave action within horns, directivity, auditory perspective, and attendant problems involving preservation of presence, distortion in air columns, etc.

The Symposium On Auditory Perspective that I mentioned in my previous post goes into further detail describing this.

The bass does not treat the drywall as if it werent there. All a horn needs is a reasonably rigid boundary (PWK) to form a column of air. In fact if the bass doesn't see the drywall as you propose, the bass horn would not perform properly resulting in a significant response dip in the 250-500Hz region (see Dope From Hope Vol. 2, No. 12, Nov. 1961). On the other hand, if the walls are not sturdy (rigid) enough, with K-horns they can act as a passive radiator in the bass region exaggerating the frequency response & reducing definition, or they could simply reduce the efficiency of the bass horn depending on the situation. Im not sure where you got the idea that the bass doesnt see the drywall & instead sees the whole basement. The wavelengths of all the frequencies from the upper frequency crossover of the bass horn (400Hz = 2 wavelength) on down are a minimum of 4 to 5x longer than the thickness of a typical interior wall. What matters here is that the drywall sees the sound first. Any sound hitting the drywall will be partially absorbed the drywall, a small amount will pass thru it & the remainder (most of the sound) being reflected back into the room.

I would like to know where you read that PWK designed the K-horn to be fairly immune to room reflections. I think your source kind of has the issue confused. Its quite in fact the opposite. Howard Tremaine, who many years ago described the Klipschorn in his Audio Cyclopedia (Howard Sams & Co, 1959) as follows: The enclosure placed in a room corner to utilize reflections from the floor and wall. Note: utilize reflections, not be fairly immune to room reflections. That statement was primarily speaking of the bass horn, but that is also one of the reasons why room acoustics plays such an important role with the K-horns. They are capable of exciting any and all room modes. And even yourself in a previous post mention the that the midrange depends on some reflections to either side. The keyword here is some.

Room acoustics can affect the overall quality of a sound reproducing system. This should go without saying. Yet it happens some times that a fine reproducing system is installed in a poor environment (Dope From Hope Vol. 1, No. 4, Dec 1960, PWK). This publication goes on to describe methods for improving room acoustics which I have applied to my room. Also see D F H Vol. 5, No. 1 Feb. 1964; Vol. 9, No. 1, Feb. 1968; Vol. 10, No. 1, Jan. 1975.

Quite frankly, I dont see how you can get anything approaching optimum sound reproduction, from K-horns, or any speaker for that matter, in a space treated the way your listening room is. You may think it sounds glorious. But I propose to you that you have not even begun to hear what the K-horns (nor your other fine components) are capable of in a room set up as your is. You obviously have the space. Now do something with it!

I also see you have the infamous Franka Zappa Crappa poster on your profile. At least we have something in common! We (my band) had that poster in our rehearsal room back in the 70s.

[Randy Bey]

artto,

I was speaking from memory, which is in my case fundamentally flawed. And my sources are disparate and not necessarily correct, so there is the doubling effect going on here.

However, it also seems obvious that you are a man of means, while I need to save up for a month to have two nickels to rub together.

Nonetheless, I stand by my assessment of the quality of the sound from the khorns in my room, as abysmal as someone in your position might see it. In fact, I cannot imagine even a 1% change in quality based upon what I hear and what possibly can be.

If you have discrete recommendations, I'm all ears. See this diagram:

The furniture is no longer set up as described, but close. In particular the large box on the front wall is absent.

[AndyKubicki]

Artto,

Where can a mortal like myself get hold of some of these writings? Are they available on the web? I would be interested in looking at these.

Randy,

Your room is remarkably similar to mine except the length of your longest wall, mine being just a few ft shorter. Unfortunately, in my room I have to listen from the opposite side, where you have your Khorns because there is a pantry and stairway behind me. The only two corners are 20 some ft apart resulting in my horns being so far apart. In addition, we have furniture in the room along the walls, and even the walls to both sides of my horns are not full walls as there is a window on one side and, not as bad, a sliding glass door on the other.

I guess this amounts to Khorn abuse? But I have no other suitable room in this place, so I have to live with this. I have been more focused on the electronics lately, but am glad to see this topic brought up in more detail as I'm sure I can improve a bad acoustic situation, so I am listening to you two!

[fini]

O.K., now it's obvious! It's because you're facing North! Duh!!!

fini