artto's Klipschorn Room

[formica]

It's only another 16 notes or so but it really adds
another dimension to anything that has information down there.

I totally agree with you Art... I've been a long time fan of using subwoofers for music, it really does bring another dimension to good recordings. The irony, i found is that it's excentuated the differences in the recordings (rolled off -vs- good -vs- boomy)... I'm sure it'll prove quite usefull for your own mixes.

ROb

[artto]

OK Art, enough teasing - when is the listening party? If long over due....

I need to come over and take pictures of your stands... so I can build some for myself.

LOL. Yes, its true.

We're having some entrance, walk and patio areas re-built soon. So after that's done I guess we can have a party [H] [pi] [8] [D] [pi] [8] [Y]

Actually, I may still have the original drawings for the stands, I'll have to check my drafting files. At one time I was considering having someone manufacture them for me for resale but it proved too costly (for back then).

But be aware, acoustically, the room doesn't really sound its best with more than three people in there. It changes the sound quite a bit. Maybe a little too much fine tuning? But hey, I'm the only one listening in there almost 100% of the time. My sanctuary so to speak.

[toolz]

Art, your room is truely remarkable. I found the the thread this morning and realized (slow learner []) it has been ongoing for 10 years.... What a great forum. Your dedication to the persuit of sound perfection has enlightened us all.

[garyrc]

Hi Artto,

Are you cutting off your Khorns at some point (40 Hz?), or are you allowing them to fade out on their own as they approach 30 Hz? If you have tried it both ways, which sounds better? I was reluctant to cut mine at the THX/Audyssey recommended crossover point of 80 Hz for fear of losing the Khorns' clean, low FM distortion, impact below 80. I finally tried it and found that 1) The 80Hz crossover on my Marantz preamp is really more like 60 Hz 2) Virtually all timpani and big bass drum beat impacts lie above 60 Hz, and it seems to be just the undertone that is below, in the sub range, ie. the sub reproduces the "OOMM" in BA -OOM, and the Khorns reproduce the "BA." I have not decided whether to leave the crossover at that point ... more time needed.

[artto]

Hi Artto,

Are you cutting off your Khorns at some point (40 Hz?), or are you allowing them to fade out on their own as they approach 30 Hz? If you have tried it both ways, which sounds better?

Gary, no I haven't ~ yet, only the Belle center speaker is cut off below 50Hz using the graphic EQ on a DEQ2496 along with time delay. I need to get a third DEQ2496 which I'll probably do soon because I have to use up some Ebay bucks before the end of the month. Honestly, I'm still a little reluctant adding a processor to the mains (Khorns). I'm a minimalist at heart and all this digital processing stuff is sort of in the antithesis catagory for me.

What I do know is that SVS, with their newest subs that have integrated DSP recommend their lowest crossover point with Klipschorns at 31.5Hz (@24dB/octave). The Epik Empire's lowest crossover is 40Hz (@12dB/octave - fixed) which is where I have them set, and also why I got the Behringer DEQ2496, so I could dial things in a little bit better.

So for right now the Khorns are running full range, no EQ or processing. I haven't measured the total system response yet with the new subs integrated, although I must say it sounds really, really good as is. I also want to get the Luxman triodes and Wright 2A3 SET's back in the system for a test run with the subs. Lately I've been using a McIntosh MC7205 for power. And actually, a third DEQ2496 would make those swaps a little easier for me.

Another reason for considering a third DEQ2496 for use on the Khorn mains is it has a "width" control. I used to have a Crown DL-2 controller/preamp that had an analog version of this and it was quite useful to maintain stereo image while narrowing the stage width on recordings where, for instance, the drummer has "12 foot long arms". With the speakers on the long wall about 28 feet apart I always find this kind of mix irritating. The width "imaging" control always worked better than a simple blend control and I miss it.

As for using the DEQ for cutting lower frequencies or AutoEQ on the Khorns, that remains to be seen. And of course if adds anything that shouldn't be there like noise or loss of resolution (which is what happened the first time around many years ago - Behringer has since changed processors and firmware) it won't be in my system long.

I'll be sure to report the results as usual.

[WPS]

What is that on top of the Khorn on the 04/14/12 Post

[artto]

What is that on top of the Khorn on the 04/14/12 Post

That is an Auralex MegaLNRD bass trap with a regular size Auralex LNRD on top.

I've run frequency response tests on the mains and subwoofers separately, with and without the Auralex MegaLNRD's in the room (there are also some stacked in the rear corners) and the bass response is definitely smoother with the bass traps. In particular the frequency response dips due to room mode cancellations are reduced.

I usually have the MegaLNRD's overhanging the Khorn's top front edge a few inches, just to enough to reduce vertical dispersion from the tweeter and midrange to reduce reflections off the ceiling so I can hear more of what's coming directly from the speaker and what's actually on the recording with less influence from room reflections. I could achieved the same thing by strategically placed absorption or diffusers on the ceiling as I have in the past but I didn't want to spoil the illusion and more spacious appearance of the ceiling being higher than it actually is by providing visual clues due to diffusers being located there. Psychoacoustics can often play a major role in what we hear (or shall I say what we think we hear).

I can also move the MegaLNRD's back and forth further into the corner allowing me to fine tune the "liveliness" of the sound, for instance, when there are more people in the room, though I usually have them overhanging.

[neo33]

artto, you have an amazing "concert" hall. It must be nice to go to a concert everyday. Perhaps one day I can pay you a visit.

[kwingylee]

Sorry Art, I have been on the road a lot..... Spending a lot of time of the East Coast.

Maybe sometime around 7/4?

I am seriously about rebuilding your stands. I love the open look. It really shows off your equipment.

Kwing

[bassace]

Thank you to your reply for ideas on my thread, and yes, your room is truly inspiring me to try some of your ideas. If I were within striking distance of your abode I could easily become a fixture! Thanks again for leading me to 10 pages of useful info! []

[lifter]

Just caught this thread... Truly amazing stuff. I have so much to learn and I have been indulging since 1977.. First I heard of 3 channels? I guess you run the 3rd in mono? Thanks for sharing!!

[Cody_Mack]

First things first. Ideally…….you need a room with the proper proportions to achieve uniform distribution of eigentons (low frequency room modes). The ratio is 1: 1.26: 1.59 (called the “Golden Mean”) (see Klipsch Dope From Hope newsletter Vol9, No1 Feb 1968). It doesn’t have to be exact. And rooms outside of these proportions have been known to sound good. Use the long wall for the “stage”. It makes a dramatic difference & you may even find that you don’t have to “turn-it-up” as loud.

Another “trick” you can use is the Half-Room Principal (Room Dimensions for Optimum Listening and the Half Room Principal, IRE Transactions on Audio, Vol AU-6, No1 Jan-Feb 1958, pp 14-15). For instance, my room is 27’ wide. A 42Hz note has a wavelength of aprox. 27’. So based on the longest dimension of the room, the room will accurately convey the full wavelength of a 42 Hz tone. But based on the Half Room Principal, you can expect a reasonably flat room response down to 21Hz (21Hz=54’ wavelength. 54’/2 (one-half of the wavelength)=27’.

If you take this one step further & use the diagonal dimension (which you can do with K-horns because of their corner placement & 45 degree angle toe in) it works even better. My room has a diagonal dimension of 32’ which ½is one-half of 64’. 64’ puts you at about 17-18Hz. My system has measured down only 9Db below 20Hz with no electronic EQ. Not bad for folded horn-loaded speaker of this size. And in fact, that puts the K-horns at about 95Db/watt below 20Hz. Much better efficiency than any of the “sub-woofers” or so-called “flat” “audiophile” speakers out there.

A dimension you want to avoid is 19’ (or multiples & fractions) thereof as it is the wavelength of 60Hz (electrical hum).

OK I understand most of this, at least from a common sense perspective. A little puzzling though, is that I keep reading about the Golden Mean Ratio of 1 : 1.26 : 1.59, or slight variations thereof; but the rooms suggested in numerous papers, and in this thread, the 1 factor (the height) stays constant but the length and width dimensions grow significantly. For instance, with the PWK recommended rooms of 10’ x 17’ x 27’, in this document, http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/7/1807933/Room%20Dimensions%20for%20Optimum%20Listening%20PWK.pdf ), and the factory studio of 10’ x 16’ x 25’, in this document, http://community.klipsch.com/dope/Dope_680201_v9n1.pdf ), the height would have to be significantly higher to maintain the ratio. PWK did add a disclaimer that the height may not be as critical but the length and width ratios maintain some familiar and proven formula. And I understand the diagonal dimension of 32’ which, in ideal conditions, with the correct loudspeaker (Klipschorn), will allow you to reproduce a pipe organ in its entirety. I have heard very strong hints of this with Mallette’s K-horns in his modest listening room. I have limited experience with K-horns, but just listening to Dave’s made a believer out of me; they take music to a whole other level! Getting back to the architectural discussion, is the suggested room of 10’ x 17’ x 27’ optimum? What if you went larger? Is bigger better, or do you open up a new equation when you expand from the PWK formula? I have suddenly taken interest in this thread, and would love to have discussions on the subject. We have finally taking serious steps on building our dream home; and with that dream home comes Rick’s space, designed from the ground up as a dedicated music listening space primarily, and home theatre secondary. Needless to say, I am pumped!

Rick

[Cody_Mack]

C'mon, somebody....all the knowledge on this Forum?

Rick

[garyrc]

I don't know there is an optimum size .... in fact I'm pretty sure there is not.
The factory (for a while, perhaps still) recommended a minimum ceiling
height of 8.5 feet for Klipschorns but Artto's ceiling is lower than
that and the sound is legendary. The Bolt paper cited by PWK implied
that there is a range of good sizes. Some of the best sound I ever heard was in a theater about 175 feet long, 90 or so wide, with a floor and ceiling sloped at different angles and there were 6 channels of fully horn loaded JBL sound. I believe that once the dimensions are over a certain magnitude standing waves are inaudible and the musical wavelengths aren't that long, anyway. PWK did some demos with Klipschorns in auditoriums, one in Hartford -- I think this one is somewhere in either The Dope from Hope, or the Klipsch Audio Papers. There was a small dance hall in a loft somewhere (New York?) that used one Khorn in each of the 4 corners that also had legendary sound. If you use some of the more efficient Klipsches (or similar) I don't think you are likely to build a room that is too big, but you can get too far away from the main speakers. Mine are 16 feet away from the center listener; I wouldn't want to get much farther away.

You may want to take a look at some of the room mode calculators online, if you haven't already.

Even though you are building a music room and HT in a home, you might find Jeff Cooper's How to Build a Recording Studio helpful (3rd edition -- check the library for the latest) good reading. We built two music rooms in two houses we lived in, and Cooper was a help each time. The latest room is 16.75 feet wide, 25 feet long with a ceiling that slopes from 8.5 feet in the front to 11 feet 10 inches in the back. We coldn't get it quite into Bolt (using the mean for ht.), but the too wide width is moderated by some bookcases, etc. We use 7 diffusers and 6 2x2 absorbers, with wall to wall carpeting. We have Khorns R & L with a Belle Klipsch center speaker raised up so the tweeter is at ear level (same ht. as the Khorn tweets), and flush mounted. Audyssey improves the sound both by ear and on paper (as measured by Room EQ WIzard). The room is a great improvement over the last room, but not perfect. There is a 40 Hz peak, but we don't hear it on most program material.

If we were starting from scratch, we would consider Klipsch Jubs (hidden behind an acoustically transparent fabric) instead of Khorns. There are several people on the Forum that have various configurations of the Jub.

[Chris A]

Getting back to the architectural discussion, is the suggested room of 10’ x 17’ x 27’ optimum? What if you went larger? Is bigger better, or do you open up a new equation when you expand from the PWK formula? I have suddenly taken interest in this thread, and would love to have discussions on the subject. We have finally taking serious steps on building our dream home; and with that dream home comes Rick’s space, designed from the ground up as a dedicated music listening space primarily, and home theatre secondary. Needless to say, I am pumped!

See this posting: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/173186/1956981.aspx#1956981

Reproduced again here:

"See the tenth page of this article for the areas that are darkened in the plots - those are rooms whose ratios of length to height, plus width

to height are good (the length being the longest dimension, and typically the width being the next longest dimension). It is not possible to talk about one dimension only - it is the ratios of room length to width to height, These plots are much better than any others that I've seen.

Note that there are actually three different plots - pick the one closest to your room volume: 50, 100 or 200 meters^3 (that's 1765, 3531, and 7064 feet^3)

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/7/1807974/JAES_V52_6_PG640.pdf"

Chris

[garyrc]

I guess you run the 3rd in mono? Thanks for sharing!!

Most people run the center (mono) signal either off of a center channel output on their AV preamp with an extra power amp, or off of the center channel of an AV receiver, or get the third channel out of a home made circuit that mixes right and left to create the center, and feeds an extra power amp. Klipsch has a circuit diagram available for this. Beware the early third channel mixing circuit that did not feed an extra power amp (or a channel in a many channel power amp) -- it had problems.

When using a 2 channel source, whether you adjust the center channel to be the same volume as each of the other two channels may depend on the microphone configuration used in making the recording. I usually just have them at equal SPL as set by Audyssey, but once in a while end up turning the center down. PWK and others did research on this topic which is in the Klipsch Audio Papers collection -- one or more of the articles are titled something like "Wide Stage Stereo."

The advantage of using a good AV preamp or receiver is that you can play SACDs, DVDs, BDs, etc., with an independent center channel (that is on the disk), then switch over to a two channel source and your AV will allow you to select a mono mix for the center, without a home made circuit.

[Cody_Mack]

Thanks Gary. I think I know what you mean about sitting too

far back. In fact, I enjoy near-field listening, at least with experiences I have

had with my Heresys. Boy, that suggested book is pricey! Maybe the library will

have it.

So your present room is about the size of the Klipsch

factory room. Noting the sloping ceiling, I assume you have the mains on the

short (16.75 foot) wall? And at the end with the lowest ceiling height?

Rick

[Cody_Mack]

Thanks for the links Chris, I knew there would be plenty of discussions to be found here. And, yes, an IB sub is in the plan as well.

Rick

[garyrc]

So your present room is about the size of the Klipsch
factory room. Noting the sloping ceiling, I assume you have the mains on the
short (16.75 foot) wall? And at the end with the lowest ceiling height?

Yes, that's correct. We would have had the mains on the long wall, and sloped the ceiling the other way, but that would have required much more of a stuctural change to the house and we would not have been able to back up far enough, so we were afraid that -- even with a Belle Klipsch center -- the sound stage would have been so wide (in degrees from listener position) that there would have been holes in the image between the Belle and each Khorn. Also, the room serves the triple purpose of a music room, library, and Home Theater, so we wanted a large (so called) acoustically transparent 2.35:1 projection screen (Seymour) that rolls down in the center, in front of the elevated, flush mounted Belle. The 130" wide (true width, not diagonal) screen looks big against the 16.75 foot wall, between the Khorns, but would have looked smaller against a 25 foot wall. Even though a friend warned us that "acoustically transparent" is like "clean coal," that is less true when Audyssey is run with the screen down. I believe that one of the engineers at Klipsch ran a test on a Seymour screen and found that the treble attenuation was negligible, but we think it is a bit better with the help of Audyssey.

[artto]

I don't know there is an optimum size .... in fact I'm pretty sure there is not.

Indeed there is not an optimum "size" .

From my experience people often confuse "size" and proportions .

Yes, there is some minimum "size" that would be necessary for a speaker system like a Klipschorn, based on personal preferences and "tolerance" of what is adequate for you such as the distance required for the sound from all the drivers to "blend". But if you like sitting 4' feet in front of a pairs of these, more power to ya!

The main reason for a room with certain "proportions" has mainly do to with the bass frequencies. And in particular with the Klipschorn because it is intimately tied/related to the room boundaries, the trihedral room corner in particular. In doing so, it is capable of exciting any and all room "modes" to the maximum. Translation: the speaker's interaction with the room boundaries will greatly affect the smoothness and even low frequency extension of what you hear in conjunction with your listening location within the room.

All of this of course assumes a rather simple "model" with closed parallel boundaries.

As the room size gets larger and larger, to the point where the wavelengths of the lowest frequencies are a small fraction of the shortest room dimension, the room proportions no longer have as much affect on the frequency response we hear as a combination of the speaker, its location in the room, our location in the room and the room's boundary influence.

As a simplified example, lets say one dimension of your room is 20'. 20 feet is also the aprox. length of a 56Hz tone. The 56Hz sound produced by a speaker flush mounted in the wall of 20' dimension leaves the speaker, hits the opposite wall and is reflected back, and then coincides with the next 56Hz wave produced by the speaker. At 56hz this is happening 56 times per second. And each time the sound is reflected back from the opposite wall the engery is compounded until it reaches some equalibrium. The result is an increase in sound pressure (loudness) at 56hz at the room boundary and at harmonically related intervals in between. And even worse, at the point where the reflecting wave and next wave produced by the speaker intersect out of phase a destruction interference occurs resulting in a "null", or cancellation. Under ideal destructive conditions the 56hz tone will literally disappear.

The other issue, as far as "audiophiles" are concerned, is that if we increase the size of the space to where the smallest room dimension is only a small fraction of the wavelength of the lowest frequency that is to be produced, the room gets very large (20Hz = 56 feet). And then the problem becomes one of adequate acoustic power output with low distortion. A pair of Klipschorns ain't gonna do it.

The PWK (actually developed by Richard H. Bolt) ratios are not the only recommended formula for room proportions. R. Walker of the BBC also has a popular formula and I'm sure there are others. But the point is that if the room has rectangular parallel boundaries which are substantially smaller than the longest wavelengths, we don't want to create conditions where all of the room dimensions are equal to, or 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8 of the low frequency wavelengths.

Here's a link to Siegfried Linkwitz's Excel spreadsheet using Walker's formula.

www.linkwitzlab.com/modes1.xls

Acceptable room if:
1.1*(W/H) < (L/H) < 4.5*(W/H)-4
2.0	2.8	4.0
		(R. Walker, BBC, 1996)