artto's Klipschorn Room

[artto]

John Malotky's post of his visit to my place.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=36486&forumID=68&catID=19&search=1&searchstring

Got to spend an afternoon in Arttos listening room. He has pics in the architecture thread. What a system, and sound.

First off, the room is a masterpiece. The room is not too dead or totally sound sucking sounding like some I have been in and there definitely is no slap or echo what so ever which is nice for its sheer size and lack of furniture. It is a very natural flat sounding room. Sorry - Hard to put this into words. We spend time discussing the room while his rare luxman amps got warmed up. With all the curved walls, the ceiling looks 10 feet tall, I reached up to touch and it is actually a few inches under 8. A real optical illusion.

Artto is using a 3 channel stereo setup, using the Klipsch splitter box to create the center signal. I have only heard one maybe to other 3 ch systems in the past and have only been moderately impressed. Arttos system makes me want to set up a 3ch system. In my 2ch system, the imaging sounds to be even with or behind the front wall. The width of the imaging being just a bit wider than the khorns position. In Arttos system the soundstage was much more 3 dimensional, the soundstage was a full 180 degrees from side to side, some sounds were definitely behind the front wall and some come from in-between the speakers and my position. Extremely 3D sounding.

Here is an example, I brought over a CD that I have memorized. The recording is mixed with every drum and instrument having its own mic. On Arttos system I could hear where the engineer had the pan set on each instrument. Tony Levins Bass was in the middle. Each of the drums and cymbals were individually spaced from about 25 deg right to 25 deg left. One guitar was about 40 deg right, one about 40 deg left and the 3rd was about 10 deg to the left. I could hear each cymbal crash and decay from its single point in space. Each drum strike and snare decay from a point in space. Like a laser beam to my head. The experience was enlightening. On my system I can hear everything plane as day and hear the imaging but nothing close to this extreme.

So how does Artto do this. The laser beam sound effect is mostly the room. I am convinced of that after the visit to Klipsh and being in the chamber. I am also convinced that the sound generation using the 3 CH system adds to this effect by re-enforcing the sound in the center. This way the minute details of the right sterio effects can be beter defined between the Right side and the center speakers.

Will I be able to recreate this with My Mc / Klispch setup. Not sure, but I am going to try. I do plan to start working on transforming my system to utilize 3 ch listening. (someday) After I got home from Arttos I listened to my system. The sound quality is good using my McIntoshes, probably becouse my room is a bit more live sounding than Artos.

This experience was enlightening to me. Here I go, On to the next level of my Audio quest.

Thanks Artto for the nice afternoon at your home. It was a real pleasure.

JM

[ltsdnce]

artto,

Please explain the ratio 1:1.26:1.59. I have some klipschorns and plan on building a room for them...something around 18-20 ft wide, with 9' ceilings (at least). What would the best room dimensions be?

Thanks,

S.

[artto]

A ratio of height to width to length of approximately 1(height): 1.26(width): 1.59(length) is preferable to minimize excitation of room modes caused by the room boundaries. So if you are going have 9 ceilings the ratios are determined as follows 9 (height) to 1.26 (width) to 1.59 (length). Therefore, 9 x1.26 = 11.34 (11-4) and 9 x 1.59 = 14.31 (14- ¾). What this does is minimizes the number of & intensity of various axial room resonances that cause variations in room/speaker frequency response, especially in the lower registers.

If you want to go 18 long (I am assuming that when you said 18-20 wide, that this is the long wall where you want to place the speakers which is actually the length dimension) this would require the ceiling to be 11.32 (aprox. 11-4) (18/1.59), and the other wall 14.26 (11.32 x 1.26).

With Klipschorns, the room (as Im sure you know) is part of the low-bass reproducing system. And consequently, because of their corner design, are capable of exciting any and all room modes, so its important to minimize the number & magnitude of modes to obtain the smoothest frequency response, especially as the frequency goes lower.

Also consider, that because of the dispersion characteristics of the tweeter, as well as its height, its desirable to have a higher ceiling with carpeted floors to minimize the multiple peaks from the tweeter due to sound which reflects off the side walls & ceiling. This is what usually causes the so-called Khorn's 'upper midrange problem' with instrumental clarity & strident female voices.

Welcome to the Forum S!

[ltsdnce]

Thanks, artto...very helpful!

S.

[TheEAR]

artto,

Very impressive setup,your room acoustic treatment is quite a wonder in itself.I admire so much dedication and audiophile touch.I am quite sure just about any speakers set up well in this room would sound very close to their best.

And class gear too!

With so much work put in to tame negative room acoustics its hard not to get near audio nirvana.

Great setup artto

[artto]

Just bringing this up to the top again so its easier to find for some of the newbies. Should have some more pics in a while.

[Champagne taste beer budget]

Very thoughtful of you, artto. I'd actually subscribed to this thread and use it for reference, I didn't realize that it was even still around after the refreshing of the board a while ago.

[artto]

This is how the room looked in its second (previous) revision (circa 1984-90). I guess I should have posted this first for reference. The colors/lighting in this pic are more representative of the room ambience as opposed to "music room now.jpg". Eventually I'll get around to taking new pictures showing a more representative lighting with a wider angle lens like this pic was taken with. For now I guess you'll have to use your imagination. The shadows caused by the indirect lighting on the curved surfaces creates a rather dramatic effect that was somewhat washed out and looks 'colder' than it really is because of the camera flash.

In this setup I simply covered the Celotex panels that are across the upper part of the walls by hanging linen 'curtains' over them. The curtains are suspended from cheap electrical conduit hung with thin wire from anchor bolts inserted into the ceiling. Conduit also through the bottom of the curtain to keep them held hanging flat.

This was done primarily for cosmetic reasons. Although at the time, I thought it might help reduce the acoustic damping of the Celotex. In reality, it had no impact.

In the room's third revision (1990)(music room now.jpg) I got rid of the curtains. Put up an additional layer of Celotex. And then put curved Masonite cylinders in front of the Celotex to get better diffusion and provide more bass damping without damping the middle & high frequencies. The idea was to keep the room 'live', while still providing trapping of a broad range of frequencies as the volume level increases so that the reverberation time doesn't get excessive and cause what I call "acoustic overload".

[artto]

This is the speaker/room frequency response graph using 20-20KHz white noise from the Prosonus Studio Reference CD. It was taken at the listening position, all 3 speakers operating. Pickup was with an Oktava MC012 omnidirectional mic fed to a Mackie 1202 VLZ mixer feeding the Sony A7 DAT directly. The Sony DAT recorded the test signal. I then downloaded the DAT to my workstation, using Sound Forge 6.0's spectrum analyzer to produce the graph.

The Oktava MC012 is not a calibrated 'test' microphone. The manufacturer's frequency response graph http://www.megaaudio.de/produkte/oktava/tech_mk12.html shows the mic being extremely flat from 30Hz to 2KHz. The roll-off you see at the higher frequencies is predominantly caused by the mic which is known to start rolling off at 10KHz or lower. I'm in the process of trying to locate a truely 'flat' test mic for rental so I can run the tests again.

The system actually tested flat or down just a few Db down to 16Hz. The room has a known fundamental resonance frequency of 19Hz which probably is responsible for the excellent bass extension. But this still would not be possible if it weren't for the new Auralex LENRD & MegaLENRD 'bass traps' which were recently installed.

[Colin]

Artto, great room! Music Room? More like music hall! More like I think rubber balls make better insulators that blocks of foam, in my opinion. How is the tone-arm and NOT the room responsible for the almost 10dB peak at 160Hz in the first frequency response?

[artto]

Colin, the first room response I posted further up in this thread was taken nearly 20 years ago! Pre CD/digital. The room was much different then. More like the frontal view in the 'music_room72dpi' pic a few posts up. There was no 'bass trapping' back then either. And the response was taken using a Crown Test Record played with Decca Maroon (Plum) phono pickup on a Decca International arm which is at least partly responsible for the 'bump' at 160Hz. Also, I didn't have the crossover inductor for the woofer removed at that time either. Disconnecting the inductor takes out some of the bump in the bass range too.

Back then the equipment rack the Linn was on was loaded down with those concrete blocks floated on closed cell foam further up the thread. I later found out from the Linn distributor who saw an article on my system in Stereo Review that I should have the Linn on a light de-coupled surface, which is now how it is set up. The heavy solid concrete blocks are now gone.

[ncsubum]

Come on artto...you need me to come by and show you how its done? (see pic now) open in a new window if you can so you can follow my explanations

Wow...let me explain the setup. I'll go from left to right.

1) Left RF-7 ... klipschorn what? who wants those ragedy old things (not me)<-- yeah right

2) big desk ... nothing controls absorbtion/diffusion like a giant chunck of wood.

3) lcd monitor on top of reciever ... expertly placed to control reflections off the front wall...damn i'm good

4) big *** (for a bedroom) tv ... don't know how it affects the sound...but its def. better since i put the tv there.

5) picture of my mom, girlfriend, and a vanilla scented air freshener...same purpose as the monitor, to control reflections off the front wall. (they have been moved now to make room for the rc-7 i just got)

6) Right RF-7 ... with the grille pulled off ... cause you know... it helps the psychoacoustics (nice word btw...dr artto)

7) rolled up poster and nc state calander...wow don't let the apperance fool you...auralex lernd doesn't have anything on the poster. and the exact twist and placement of the rubberbands is very important...contact me if you need details on how to create your own

8) just barely in the pic. is my desk hutch which had to be removed to make way for the acoustical gains of the big *** tv...but the hutch on the floor really helps to difuse and absorb the sound by trapping and reflecting via the cubby holes.

9) my full sized bed. i know what your thinkin' and yeah...thats where the magic happens (or sometimes the chair you see)...yep i listen to my music right there, i know you guys are jealous. the new cool looking comforter is actually specially designed to reduce standing waves and absorb some of the 'brightness' that comes w/the yamaha reciever i have

10) Last addition...the center channel on top of the tv. you see...people think that having the center channel that high makes things panning accross the front stage sound like they jump up...but i believe having the center channel there does something good...

Thanks for starting this thread...i was really looking for a reason to show off my awsome room.

---------

ok...for real, you are awsome. I'd love to get the chance to listen. I hope this didn't offend you in any way. i don't think its a joke how overboard your room is, because i think its great. I'm just in the middle of my exam week and needed to take a break and humor myself (yeah, this post was really just for me.)

I'm moving home this weekend and will be moving all my stuff into a better room at which point i may try to solicit your knowledge if i can't find answers in your other posts.

Thanks again for all your responses on room acoustics I'm sure they will help me at some point down the road.

Chris

[artto]

[Champagne taste beer budget]

Since this is up on top of the list...

What is the recommended method for isolating pipes, ducting, etc. from the overhead joists? Damn, that just reminded me of something; since we are going to be finishing the complete downstairs ourselves, do we just have the HVAC installer leave a few empty outlets on the distribution box? I'm also a little miffed at how I'm going to prevent the a/c ducts from creating a high pressure area in the wood shop with the potential to force dust out when the door is opened, but that's a diferent issue, though if there's anyone reading this thread that has any suggestions I'd be more than happy to hear em.

[Klipschfoot]

Artto, how far away are the amps from the speakers? I have always heard that it is best to put the amps near the speaker and have the long run, if necessary, from pre to amp. Have you ever tried putting them on the speakers with short speakerwire runs?

[Champagne taste beer budget]

Klipschfoot, I've heard that too, but I always wondered why you'd want to have a long line with a low voltage/current input as opposed to one with some substantial current going through it. Maybe the 10-20 or whatever foot length isn't long enough to have sufficient line loss to worry about in an interconnect . I don't know, that's why I'm here. Good question though.

[artto]

Champagne, I double wrapped all the water pipes (sump ejector pipe too) & HVAC vents with a foam/aluminum foil faced insulation available at any hardware store. The pipes & vents were isolated from the building structure by forming closed cell foam weather stripping around the pipes where they passed through the hole in the joists or studs. I placed closed cell foam pads under the HVAC vent supports.

As for the potential of dust being forced out when the door is opened, you really should have a separate exhaust for that. Also you should have a separate cold air return so that the air is forced back through the HVACs filter or possibly a second (preliminary) filter.

This also brings up another point. The better HVAC systems nowadays are generally multi-velocity systems. The one Im considering installing in my house has 64 different speeds. It is on all the time so that there is air flow constantly. This keeps the air cleaner, even when the windows are open. Its much more efficient to operate. And as a side benefit, its also much more quiet. Most of the noise generated by HVAC is caused by the velocity of the air flow. This type of system only operates at full output under the most infrequent and extreme conditions.

[artto]

----------------

On 5/4/2004 6:56:54 PM Klipschfoot wrote:

Artto, how far away are the amps from the speakers? I have always heard that it is best to put the amps near the speaker and have the long run, if necessary, from pre to amp. Have you ever tried putting them on the speakers with short speakerwire runs?

----------------

Klipschfoot, you are quite right in that ideally the speaker wire runs should be kept short. In fact all the wires should be kept short as possible. Tim deParavicini who designed the amps I use also prefers keeping the speaker wire lengths as short as possible (hence the preference for monoblock design).

My room is fairly large (28 x 18.5). I dont like watching a light show & gazing at all the gear while Im listening. IMO it detracts from listening experience. So the equipment is located to one side of the room (records, tapes & CDs on the other).

However, if you have a run of (unbalanced) interconnect cable more than about 12 (which would definitely occur in my room no matter how you look at it), line-noise can become a problem. The increased cable capacitance can also cause high frequency roll-off with increasing distance. Hence the need for balanced cables (the 3-wire XLR type used in pro audio which usually requires longer runs). Most home audio (particularly vintage) equipment are not equipped with this. And then again, some say that balanced cables also reduce sound quality.

So for me, its the tradeoff Ive chosen as the lesser of two evils. I consider the room size, proportions & acoustic treatment to be of paramount importance, especially with Klipschorns. And it is my position that these things have far greater impact on system performance.

So to answer your question, the speaker wire runs are about 42. 12 gauge oxygen free copper King Snake by Esoteric Audio.

[j-malotky]

----------------

On 5/4/2004 6:56:54 PM Klipschfoot wrote:

Artto, how far away are the amps from the speakers? I have always heard that it is best to put the amps near the speaker and have the long run, if necessary, from pre to amp. Have you ever tried putting them on the speakers with short speakerwire runs?

----------------

I have played around with this on and off over the years.

If you are using unbalanced interconnects, I would NEVER go over 2 meters between your preamp and amp.

If you want to try putting your amps next to your speakers, and have your pre amp and componets far away, definetly use a ballanced system.

For unbalanced, it is much less degrading to have longer speaker wire, rather than interconnects.

JM

[formica]

----------------

On 5/6/2004 1:21:17 PM j-malotky wrote:

If you want to try putting your amps next to your speakers, and have your pre amp and componets far away, definetly use a ballanced system.

For unbalanced, it is much less degrading to have longer speaker wire, rather than interconnects.

----------------

That has been my experience as well... any long unbalanced interconnects (20ft+) I've had picked up some EMI including the sub's LFE. My sub's amp now resides in my equipment rack to avoid this problem... although I also had success with a shorter quality interconnect.