henry4841 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, wetowne said: My best short answer to "When to recap?" is whenever you feel the urge. Do you need to? Probably not. Good short answer to question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 23 hours ago, kswitzer said: I just purchased a pair of Forte II's. I see people talking about recapping and upgrading. How do I know if that needs to be done? I don't have any frame of reference to say these Forte II's don't sound as good as they should... easy enough --------JEM PERFORMANCE @JEM Performance is our in house klipsch Dealer that sells original klipsch capacitors -------whenever you are ready , you can buy a kit that will revamp these crossovers to Factory specs ----and the pricing is equal to the Aftermarkets ------welcome to the forum - https://jemperformanceaudio.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 22 hours ago, henry4841 said: I agree. The ones in electronic devices that have a life span are electrolytic which do need replacing in 20 year old equipment. The film caps in very old equipment that are paper film caps do fail but we are talking equipment in the 50's or older which will not apply to crossover caps as a rule. my Cornwall 1 caps were shot after 25 years of usage , and I mean so bad that the sound was muffled , and I was never happy with the replacement caps I purchased , well it's time to buy JEM klipsch caps - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 19 hours ago, wetowne said: I replaced the 47uf 100v caps on the woofer section of my 1986 Klipsch Fortes purely on the assumption that electrolytic caps that old should be replaced. The speakers sounded fine before and after, no appreciable difference. Old caps checked out fine after testing. Take away what you will from that. what brand of caps did you use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetowne Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 14 minutes ago, RandyH000 said: what brand of caps did you use Parts Express. I did them almost five years ago. The replacements certainly did no harm as the speakers still sound great. The rest of the caps are original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 On 1/30/2021 at 9:15 AM, wetowne said: Parts Express. I did them almost five years ago. The replacements certainly did no harm as the speakers still sound great. The rest of the caps are original. the newer caps will maintain the health of the network , losing a diaphragm in a mid or tweeter or damaging a woofer voice coil is certainly more expensive than replacing a capacitor - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 4 hours ago, AndreG. said: I was wondering; i have RF3s, bought them in 2000. I remember reading that the "newer" caps don´t age as bad as the ones in my Heresys, something about older caps being "wet" and newer ones being "dry". Is that correct, or do the newer caps also come with 20 - 25 year lifespan? all capacitors wear out , or leak ESR no matter what brand , quality etc ---but the leakage can be measured by comparing a new capacitor's leakage versus an older one's leakage and determine if the leakage is in an acceptable range - - the only way to test the capacitor is by using an ESR meter than can test the cap's value , but also also test for ESR leakage with is the important factor here -the hic is that it can only be tested out of circuit effectively - would a 20 year Old CF-3 need replacement , I doubt it , but it is possible , the rule of thumb is to test 1 cap in the network for ESR leakage , if the level is very low ---no big deal , but if it's very high , then the cap is bad - finally , understanding if the sound quality will improve also means buying new capacitors that are paired -----so that both speakers will have a very close sound , if the new capacitors are not paired for equivalent values and ESR by the seller , then both speakers even when upgraded will not sound right even if the capacitor is of the expensive kind , however cheaper capacitors that are paired could sound magical - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetowne Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 22 minutes ago, RandyH000 said: is certainly more expensive than replacing a capacitor A risk I'm willing to take, besides If I blow a driver it'll be a good excuse to get the new Forte IV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 minute ago, wetowne said: A risk I'm willing to take, besides If I blow a driver it'll be a good excuse to get the new Forte IV. I would rather buy the Forte III if I can grab a deal on these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetowne Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, RandyH000 said: I would rather buy the Forte III if I can grab a deal on these That could be a plan. I got brand new Heresy III's for 1700 when the IV's came out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 37 minutes ago, RandyH000 said: all capacitors wear out , or leak ESR no matter what brand , quality etc ---but the leakage can be measured by comparing a new capacitor's leakage versus an older one's leakage and determine if the leakage is in an acceptable range - - the only way to test the capacitor is by using an ESR meter than can test the cap's value , but also also test for ESR leakage with is the important factor here -the hic is that it can only be tested out of circuit effectively - would a 20 year Old CF-3 need replacement , I doubt it , but it is possible , the rule of thumb is to test 1 cap in the network for ESR leakage , if the level is very low ---no big deal , but if it's very high , then the cap is bad - finally , understanding if the sound quality will improve also means buying new capacitors that are paired -----so that both speakers will have a very close sound , if the new capacitors are not paired for equivalent values and ESR by the seller , then both speakers even when upgraded will not sound right even if the capacitor is of the expensive kind , however cheaper capacitors that are paired could sound magical - Are you now testing caps and if so what are the allowable limits for ESR and what are you using for testing? How do you test for leakage and ESR? OK on pairing caps what tolerances do you use or recommend and why? I never test just one capacitor on old boards I test them all as you never know which ones are bad. If you are not doing this in person then you should reference the article you are quoting from so the OP can go there and read. Now to the OP. I have gone through numerous Klipsch speakers though limited to older Heritage. Probably the newest I work on would be something like the Chorus II unless we are talking Pro gear and then I get newer at times. Based on ESR that I measure with a B&K 885 , which often can be as high as .5 or more for those old mylars and electrolytics, (with new caps like Dayton's measuring say .01 at the highest and most of the time .004 or less) I rarely do not recap all capacitors on crossovers. High ESR in my experience does make for lesser sound quality based on measuring and then hearing before and after. On testing old caps. To be honest here I normally just replace them all now and measure the ones I have pulled when done just for grins and it is rare the old ones have ESR as low as new ones. Actual capacitance on old caps is normally within 5% + or -. With tolerance stack up you could have caps that test in spec but could actually have a 9% high end variance if both caps were out in opposite directions. I try to use 1% tolerance caps, if possible and economical to make for closer crossover output. I have no opinion on the Klipsch approved caps quality yea or nay and being a cheapskate for better or worse save money with Dayton and Audyn caps. If you are going in the cabinet anyway check your connections to make sure they are snug where ever they are mechanically joined. Screws on barrier strips loosened and then retightened. Screws holding in drivers or passives checked to be snug. Are the banana plugs on the back side sloppy and loose? If so switch to fork end crimp connectors and stop using banana plugs. Another thing to check is are there bits of metal stuck to driver magnets. I just got in a set of KP-201's and during removal they tech left a 3/8 nut inside each cabinet and I found them on the woofer magnet. Yeah you will hear a buzz from things like that at times and it will drive you nuts figuring it out. Most commonly you set your woofer down during work and it picks up one of the screws. You look for a bit and cant find it and get a new one never realizing the lost one is on the magnet. Check the polarity of your wires to be correct. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Over the years I have re-capped a good number of Klipsch speakers, forte 1/II, Heresy I/II, Tangent, klf-xx, kg-xx, Quartet. Most were done with Dayton/Solen class caps and in every case there was an improvement in the sound afterwards. How much better varied, but still the improvement was quite obvious and the best way to describe this would be removing a blanket that was over the speaker beforehand. As for what type of cap to use - be it polyester, polypropylene and others; it will always be a never ending debate. Polyester is what Klipsch uses and lets face it - it was a cost factor. They looked at what sounded best for a given price point. Period. Of course, that does not mean they sound bad because of them and if you like that sound then by all means replace them with the same type. But nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement - Klipsch is no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, Alexander said: Klipsch is no different. on the Contrary -Klipsch capacitors in their speakers are made to klipsch specs -but other aftermarket capacitors are not - so yes , the klipsch sound signature is different - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 5 hours ago, RandyH000 said: on the Contrary -Klipsch capacitors in their speakers are made to klipsch specs -but other aftermarket capacitors are not - so yes , the klipsch sound signature is different - Inquiring minds want to know Are you now testing caps and if so what are the allowable limits for ESR and what are you using for testing? How do you test for leakage and ESR? OK on pairing caps what tolerances do you use or recommend and why? You are hands on right? Give us a rundown on how you rework crossovers and what you use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Klipsch spec caps is a kinda vague comment. A capacitor is a simple device most all manufacturers have outstanding specifications on the capacitors used in crossover networks. You do not need a military grade capacitor in a crossover network. Electrical engineers do not go crazy on picking parts. There as so many manufactures of quality capacitors that making selection of a capacitor childs play. Anyone that can read a specification sheet on capacitors will find this true. I suspect the main Klipsch spec is like all manufacturers of electronic products boils down to price. For those that do not have or have very little knowledge of electronics buying from a Klipsch's authorized dealer is the way to go. That way you will know and your mind be satisfied you have what Klipsch recommends. For all others the field for picking a cap is big and wide being so many good manufacture's out there. Being a lurker on this forum I have seen the subject of capacitors being one of the most controversial subjects with some of the most heated arguments. I rather stay out of heated arguments especially when it comes down to such a simple subject of a film capacitor. Electrical engineers do not get caught up in any specific brand of any component. They just read the spec sheets, do some testing and use what is available at the best price. This is probably the reason the engineers at Klipsch pick a polyester capacitor (trade name 'Myler') for their networks. Most on this forum consider polypropylene to be a better cap, not necessarily so. When the specs of a polyester cap is good enough and the price is much cheaper electrical engineers choose that part saving their employer money making everyone happy including the consumer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 2 hours ago, henry4841 said: Klipsch spec caps is a kinda vague comment. A capacitor is a simple device most all manufacturers have outstanding specifications on the capacitors used in crossover networks. You do not need a military grade capacitor in a crossover network. Electrical engineers do not go crazy on picking parts. There as so many manufactures of quality capacitors that making selection of a capacitor childs play. Anyone that can read a specification sheet on capacitors will find this true. I suspect the main Klipsch spec is like all manufacturers of electronic products boils down to price. For those that do not have or have very little knowledge of electronics buying from a Klipsch's authorized dealer is the way to go. That way you will know and your mind be satisfied you have what Klipsch recommends. For all others the field for picking a cap is big and wide being so many good manufacture's out there. Being a lurker on this forum I have seen the subject of capacitors being one of the most controversial subjects with some of the most heated arguments. I rather stay out of heated arguments especially when it comes down to such a simple subject of a film capacitor. Electrical engineers do not get caught up in any specific brand of any component. They just read the spec sheets, do some testing and use what is available at the best price. This is probably the reason the engineers at Klipsch pick a polyester capacitor (trade name 'Myler') for their networks. Most on this forum consider polypropylene to be a better cap, not necessarily so. When the specs of a polyester cap is good enough and the price is much cheaper electrical engineers choose that part saving their employer money making everyone happy including the consumer. I tend towards this line of thought too. I can measure caps and I have noted no difference between Sonicaps and Dayton/Audyn caps for accuracy and ESR. They sound the same to me and one is many times the price of the others. I have avoided mylars though since I remember reading somewhere that their life is not as long. Some whose opinions I respect do claim to hear a difference but I am not one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted January 31, 2021 Klipsch Employees Share Posted January 31, 2021 22 hours ago, Alexander said: Over the years I have re-capped a good number of Klipsch speakers, forte 1/II, Heresy I/II, Tangent, klf-xx, kg-xx, Quartet. Most were done with Dayton/Solen class caps and in every case there was an improvement in the sound afterwards. How much better varied, but still the improvement was quite obvious and the best way to describe this would be removing a blanket that was over the speaker beforehand. As for what type of cap to use - be it polyester, polypropylene and others; it will always be a never ending debate. Polyester is what Klipsch uses and lets face it - it was a cost factor. They looked at what sounded best for a given price point. Period. Of course, that does not mean they sound bad because of them and if you like that sound then by all means replace them with the same type. But nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement - Klipsch is no different. Curious. Improvement how? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 8 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said: Curious. Improvement how? Unless a cap has failed which rarely happens in a crossover network the best way I know to describe the difference in caps is just different sounding. The sound that one achieves replacing caps for you may not be what another considers an improvement. I have tried many different caps in crossovers some I like better than others but I would not describe any as bad only different sounding. Naturally if one goes to this trouble trying different caps they will find a particular one that suits his taste which I did. Not for everyone for sure but one that I like. Again if you like the sound you now have why try to fix something that is not broken. There are many on this forum that replaced caps and considered the change too bright for their taste. I have read this many times. Give it a try if you choose to but do not expect any substantial difference, only a different sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted January 31, 2021 Klipsch Employees Share Posted January 31, 2021 2 hours ago, henry4841 said: Klipsch spec caps is a kinda vague comment. A capacitor is a simple device most all manufacturers have outstanding specifications on the capacitors used in crossover networks. You do not need a military grade capacitor in a crossover network. Electrical engineers do not go crazy on picking parts. There as so many manufactures of quality capacitors that making selection of a capacitor childs play. Anyone that can read a specification sheet on capacitors will find this true. I suspect the main Klipsch spec is like all manufacturers of electronic products boils down to price. For those that do not have or have very little knowledge of electronics buying from a Klipsch's authorized dealer is the way to go. That way you will know and your mind be satisfied you have what Klipsch recommends. For all others the field for picking a cap is big and wide being so many good manufacture's out there. Being a lurker on this forum I have seen the subject of capacitors being one of the most controversial subjects with some of the most heated arguments. I rather stay out of heated arguments especially when it comes down to such a simple subject of a film capacitor. Electrical engineers do not get caught up in any specific brand of any component. They just read the spec sheets, do some testing and use what is available at the best price. This is probably the reason the engineers at Klipsch pick a polyester capacitor (trade name 'Myler') for their networks. Most on this forum consider polypropylene to be a better cap, not necessarily so. When the specs of a polyester cap is good enough and the price is much cheaper electrical engineers choose that part saving their employer money making everyone happy including the consumer. I appreciate an informed insight. You make a lot of good points. I myself don’t understand the cap thing because most times a cap is part of a network that is designed to yield a voltage transfer curve. Using a cap with different specs can yield a different voltage curve. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetowne Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 3 hours ago, henry4841 said: Electrical engineers do not get caught up in any specific brand of any component. I worked as a draftsman for 33 years at Western Electric/Lucent. Prepared thousands of BOM's. Specs and price was all that mattered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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