Klipschorns NOT in a corner

[Cybernalt]

I am looking for new speakers - home audio (me) with the side purpose of some theater (wife and kids).

My room is very large - 36 long x 30 wide with 8 foot ceiling rising to 14 feet following the long axis. I'd like to install a pair of K-Horns, but due to door and window and wife constraints, I can only place them at about 1/3 intervals on the 30 foot wall, so imagine facing them from a couch roughly in the middle of the room with a dining area behind you and the K-Horns positioned - possible angled a bit - about 8 feet in from each side wall. I may need to build some sort 52" high wall to cover the one exposed side ...

Am I asking for audio disapointment? Will these simply not really work well if they cannot be placed in a rigid and ideal corner?

[HDBRbuilder]

Build some false corners to sit them into. There are numerous posts on the forum about false corners...do a search.

[Chris Robinson]

Cyber, sounds like an interesting room to work with. Big is good, but the shape may be problematic (uneven ceiling left to right).

First off, you will need good strong corners. Without them, save yourself the angst and go with Cornwalls or RF-7s or something suitable to your music genre.

You can, however, construct false corners ... Search Edster00's recent posts to see how he's done it in his Atlanta home. Pretty nice!

Klipschorns are low WAF (wife acceptance factor) in most cases unless they're in corners where they usually disappear after awhile ...

[Cybernalt]

Searching led me to ....

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=14623&forumID=71&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={0AB8DA67-A8B1-4EBA-B9A3-7B067EC96BAF}

It sem just sealing the backs off get you 90% there ... sounds too easy!

[Cybernalt]

... about the "low WAF" (wife acceptance factor) ...

I had a set of Cornwalls - 1977 models in unfinished birch. She hated but put up with them ... and she has agreed to Belles as long as they are finished.

I don't think she'd know the difference betweena Belle and a K-Horn ... as they are finished.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

My K-horns are in corners that have windows on both walls. the windows start at 23" above the floor. Not good!!

So let me make sure this I have this straight. just seal off the backs to the "side grills" and the bass should tighen up without shattering my windows?

the thread that you listed was good, but I can't access the pics. does anyone have pics of the mod that is necessary?

Just out of curiosity, what is the x-over point to the woofers? Wondering because of the whole low bass omnidirectional thing. Looking at where the side grills are, will the sound make it to the right place? when I go over to the speakers while they are playing, it sounds like there is only low bass coming from the lower cabinet.

thanks,

Chris

[soundog]

I used Medium Density Fiberboard panels to extend one wall across a solid wood door for one corner. Interestingly, still works fine with door slightly open.

[fini]

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On 12/7/2002 9:54:02 PM Cybernalt wrote:

I'd like to install a pair of K-Horns, but due to door and window and wife constraints, I can only place them at about 1/3 intervals on the 30 foot wall

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Moving the door and the window is a piece of cake, for someone handy with hammer, nails and a Sawzall. Moving the wife, though, THAT'S tough. If she's anything like mine, you may need a "tool" with diamond tips.

fini

[Cybernalt]

I need a small favor:

Can someone measure the actual top and backs-against-the-wall of their klipschorns?

The top would be 5 dimensions, two identical with the other two.

The "backs-against-the-wall" would be two dimensions, one of which is 52" I think.

Thanks

[tigerwoodKhorns]

K-horn measurement:

Top:

front = 31-1/4"

2 sides = 12-1/8"

2 backs (triangle part) = 22"

Back:

I measured the opening between the rear plate with the gasket and the side grill:

38-1/2 x 15-1/2"

total height on mine is only 50". I noticed that mine are missing the small riser between the bottom cabnet and the top, that probable accounts for the lost 2".

Now I have a question for you.

You researched the false wall. I have windows behind my corners. do I just need to block off the openings between the rear plate with the rubber gasket and the side grills?

Thanks,

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

Ideally, the K-horns should be placed snugly into existing room corners. This placement should include some sort of sealing medium to seal the tailpiece'side edges snugly into the corners...often accomplished with a strip of flexible ribbed rubber matting...or one of those rubber gaskets that has a cross-section resembling a letter "P"...with the long end of the "P" attached to the tailpiece itself. The vertical tailpiece is a sound reflecting surface for the bass bin's function...therefore, any sound lost in that area will not be able to travel FORWARD along each wall, thus completing the path through the intended extension of the bass horn lens(the walls out of that corner are an integral part of the Bass horn lens, as is the floor).

Ideally, those walls need to extend upwards AT LEAST to the first horizontal panel (ie., the top panel mounted to the bass bin)...and ideally the floor under the k-horn SHOULD be a sonic match to the panel above the bass bin(ie, not carpeted).

Also, ideally, the top panel of the bass bin should also have a seal along its edges to the wall...for the same reason the tailpiece should have such. AND the seal to the floor(if uncarpeted) can be achieved by removing the gliders on the bottom of the bass bin, and using weatherstripping appication to the bottom of the bass bin...or some other form of seal...and the weight of the unit to give a tighter seal to the floor.

In lieu of re-construction of portions of the room to achieve these ideals, one may construct false corners. These false corners need to be of solid construction...normally akin to framing up a wall and corner in home construction(but I would recommend studs on 12" centers here, with diagonal cross bracing as used in older homes, insulation stuffed into the air spaces, and use of both screws AND construction adhesive in the construction to eliminate any possibility of "buzzing" vibrations at low frequencies), and using a stud-wall-type covering that is most closely akin to the materials used in the construction of the bass bin itself. In other words: Plywood (preferably 3/4" baltic birch). In constructing these false corners, I would also recommend that they have their side-walls extend forward at least to a point even with the front panel of the bass bin. I would also highly recommend having a floor of solid construction that ties these two side-walls together, and provides a good extension surface for the bottom of the bass bin, as noted above...ESPECIALLY if the speakers are to be on carpeted floors!! In this manner, you can easily remove the k-horns from the false corners at any time, and you also have no need to modify the speakers themselves to achieve maximum performance desired. Note that the sealing of the speakers to surfaces mentioned above will also be required in the false corners to achieve the best sonic results.

The advantage to building false corners is that you will be able to place the speakers anywhere in the room you wish in order to achieve desired placement, without compromising the ideal performance of them. Another advantage is that the corners may be covered with any PRACTICAL surface material you desire...ie., laminates, veneers, paneling, etc.(so long as it is well- secured to its plywood or MDF wall/floor substrate with good contact adhesives)...and you can trim it out with nice top-caps and front edge trim...making it a WAF-friendly addition to the room.

The only WAF factor left to worry about in using false corners over good room corners would likely be the open rear area of the upper hi/mid horn housing....IF it is easily seen...and that can be solved by making some Grille-cloth covered frame panels secured with velcro to a few screwed-down blocks inside the top and bottom side edges of that upper housing. Pretty simple fix.

If the false corners are properly constructed, and have the proper forward extension, then they can often outperform many existing room corners. If not, then you will lose some performance. This is based on their being approximate to the real corners of the room to begin with so that maximum room coverage can be achieved.

I hope this helps out some in these K-horn placement dilemnas.

[Dale W]

Personally speaking i'd go with a set of belles if corners are not going to work for you.

false corners work to a degree but nothing like a tight seal to a good strong wall. Makes all the diference when it comes to the bass.

BTW welcome to the (black hole ) forum. lol

[tigerwoodKhorns]

HDBR,

thanks for the false corner details. A quisk question:

A room's corner should be at 90 degrees. The K-horns top is soemwhat less (I'd guess abotu 80 degrees) I am assuming that the false walls should be at 90 degrees. is that correct?

Here is some quick talk about bracing if one wants to keep the "walls" thinner.

When a load is applied to a beam at 90 degrees, the beam's "moment of inertia" is what resists the force. if i remember corrctly the formula is 1/12wh^3. meaning that height of the beam is exponentially (to the 3rd power) more resistent than width.

put is easy terms, if you have a yardstict, try to bend it over the small axis and it will flex easily. try to bend it over the longer axis and it is very stiff. thsi is the same reason that they design "I" beams for buildings as opposed to square tubing. the I beam is much more resistent to flex than a square tube using the same amount of steel. this is also why you see ribs on titanium tweeter domes libe JBL's.

What to take away fromn this? if several strips of wood are used to brace the wall, it can be very stiff without getting too thick. The x-brace that you mentioned is also very effective and is used in auto chassis design to reduce weight (triangles work wonders).

Just a little rambling,

Chris

[Cybernalt]

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On 12/8/2002 2:38:17 PM DALE WALKER wrote:

Personally speaking I'd go with a set of Belles if corners are not going to work for you.

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First, I hate loosing that whole octave from the Horns to the Belles, secondly, I see this as my only-ever opportunity to own a set of K-Horns.

We have a real-cheap desk that is about the size of a K-Horn - I open the size-subject this morning by reminding her the "new speakers" were gonna be that big ...

Today I again looked at the proposed room (house is being rebuilt after a fire, we've been living in in a tiny town house for 6 months). I think one needs to design the house around these beaut's.

One alternative is to semi-build them in, I might get away with that if I can make it super attractive, but it will take some serious thought. Alternatively, I could build the false walls so adequately described above, and live with the grumbles - remember: she married me inspite of my unfinished birch Cornwalls.

Another alternative is to put them downstairs (smaller room - 14 x 20 x 8'), where I could have them to myself, at least when the kids were not home, and we'll be empty nesters in a few years. Actually, "elsewhere" might be the best alternative ...

[willjam]

Just a point of reference. On the Hope Tour we visited Mr. K. In his home, he did not have his Khorns in corners, but rather had built false corners for them. So I would assume that false corners work very well.

[HDBRbuilder]

Ok...gonna try and answer these questions simply...

If you were to use 3/4" baltic birch securely screwed and glued to the stud framework of the false corner assemblies as I described above, there would be NO bracing needed...but if you just attach drywall or something else that doesn't have that torsional rigidity and stiffness, then I would recommend cross-bracing by running one diagonal dado on the outside of each stud section, and an alternate diagonal dado on the inside of each stud section...these dadoes can be just 2" wide and 3/4" deep...and the braces can be made of baltic birch plywood.

Next question. I assume you were talking about the outside body of the bass bin itself when you said the inclusive angle of it is less than 90 degrees. That is true. But the attached upper panels to the bass bin ARE at 90 degrees. You have to remember this: The final horn flare rate of the bass horn design is achieved by the difference between the bass bin body inclusive angle and the 90 degree angle of a room corner...using the walls as an integral part of the bass horn lens. That forward-opening flare between the body of the bass bin and the 90 degree corner it is set into is part of the design INTENT...and in effect, COMPLETES one left, and one right, bass horn lens...for each speaker...REMEMBER...it remains a side-firing bi-furcated pathway horn lens as the soundpath moves between sides of the bass bin body and the walls...that is one of the INTENDED design parameters.

Picture it like this: There is, in effect, a basshorn lens on each side of the bass bin. This lens has four sides. One side is the floor, the opposite side is the attached top panel...another side is the side of the bass bin, and its opposite side is the wall itself...

Now...in order to achieve the OPTIMAL bass performance for one speaker, it needs to be centered into the corner, so that the bass horn lenses on each side of it are the same in cross-sectional area at their mouthes. It also needs to be as well sealed to the corner, and to the wall as possible, to eliminate leaks, so that the soundpath is maintained within the horn lens. And, if the floor is carpeted...it is akin to gluing carpet into the bottom inside of the mid-horn lens...make sense now?

The only place the final flare of the bass horn occurs is the angle between each wall and each of the bass bin's sides. The upper and lower sides of the final part of the basshorn lens are flat(upper panel and floor)and create NO flare for the final part of the basshorn lens.

But...if you just think about it for a minute...and picture it in your mind...you will see why they need to be of similar smoothness and material as the rest of the basshorn design! The bass bin's attached upper panel meets this requirement, but a carpeted floor doesn't. This requirement is also valid for the walls...they need to be solid and at least relatively smooth (at least from the seal of the tailpiece into the corner, out to a point even with the front panel of the speaker)...and each point where any of these "sides" of the mouth of the basshorn adjoin each other need to have a good seal.

Don't confuse this by trying to use those side grille panels supplied with the k-horns as part of the visual I have described above...they have NOTHING to do with the intended design...they are just a COSMETIC filler between the bassbin sides and the walls...OK?

These reasons are why I recommend adding a solid floor to a false corner assembly if the speakers are to be positioned atop a carpeted floor.

I hope this helps answer the questions you folks have!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Cybernault,

Go for the K-horns. I have learned this the hard way in the past. If you don't buy exactly what you want, you will always still want what you did not buy.....

HDBR,

Thanks for the explanation. I cut and pasted both of your replies into a word document so that I can read again later when I finally build these things.

For some reason I thought that you were saying to use 3/4" wood braced with 2x4's. I thought "my god, he wants these things STIFF!!!"

I just assumed that there was some other aspect of the stiffness that I was unaware of, ie I would defer to you, if you say that they have to be that stiff (as I wrongly thought), then they must be (you are privy to many years of experience).

anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

Chris

[edster00]

I did build false corners for my K-horns after I saw photos of Q-man's false corners in his HT room.

The idea isn't really new, false corners were used by PWK and they were written about in the Dope from Hope papers.

I didn't make my false corners to the dimensions in the Klipsch instructions because my room is too narrow to accommodate 48" walls. My false corners are actually 44 1/2" long (each side) and 41" tall (39 1/2" tall is enough to completely cover the bass bin).

Once I built the corner, I put the whole thing on a triangular piece of 1/2" plywood for the speakers to stand on rather than carpet. With the "walls" 44 1/2" long they reach to the front face of the bass bin, and the plywood floor is flush with the front of the speakers.

Here is a link to the original thread about my listening room. If you have anyquestions, fire away!

[Q-Man]

Here's a picture of my false corners, a must for Klipschorns so you can toe the speakers in or out.

I havn't been on the forum much lately, I've been busy rebuilding the front. I had to raise the shelf above the Klipschorns 3" to fit in the new Altec tops under them. I'm also replacing the LaScala center channel with a Klipschorn, so another false corner is in the making.

When I get a chance I'll post some new pictures and explain the changes.

[HDBRbuilder]

Yeah, Edster...that Dope from Hope article was by Gary Gillum...he got the task of building PWK's false corners for his home...LOL! PWK didn't have "floors" to his false corners...at least not when I was around there years ago...but he told me once that they work better WITH floors to them...again...the WAF, at even PWK's home, entered into the picture!! LOL! I helped-out on lots of installations of k-horns into employees' homes while I worked there...the more serious listening-types among them usually included a floor in their false corners(if they needed them) when they had carpeted floors. And lots of them put at least something like plywood underneath them if they were to be in carpeted floor corners! Also, a number of them just cut the carpet back and installed hardwood flooring in just the corners, before installing them! NOT having them sit on carpet really does make a difference!!