drobskyk Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Hi, Just a thought: Can we get lower frequency response(than 35Hz) by constructing a K-horn in a larger scale with a larger,say 18", driver replacing the original one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Yes, as the horn gets larger it goes deeper. I don't know if simply scaling-up would do the trick though, basshorn design is very complex with lots of juggling of throat size, length, mouth size etc. Lots of fellas seem to be interested in Tom Danley's Labhorn. Danley designed the Unity horn, the ContraBass and the Basstech basshorn and is very highly regarded in horn and prosound circles. His Labhorn is a design he threw out there for DIYers. There's lots of info on it on the Labhorn link on my site. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Due to a 9month, and a 2 year old, and a room to small small for Klipschorns, my Altec 511b mod made these smoother! Ear protection, for the kids growing up, and me LOL! Now, i have an 18inch and was thinking of the same thing, BUT if i were to install a bigger driver the 104 efficiency factor would be gone! Id hate to have the top ends literally screaming, in order to get the low end i have now! Bigger more powerfull woofer, means more watts, and thats the last thing the Klipschorns need! Trust me! Regards Jim I had to make mine a foot taller just for the 511 horn, imagine the bulk size of a klipschorn with 18s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Yes, well, that was the thought behind the Electro-Voice Patrician. It used an 18 inch driver and was a scaled up K-Horn. Some say it had / has better bass. This is a scale up of 18/15 = 1.20. That might be worth a few notes of bass. The problem with the Patrician is that, evidently, the bass horn did not go as high as the 15 inch K-Horn. It needed three horns in the treble to cover the top end. In addition to the suggestions in the above posts you might consider the Jubilee. There is an AES paper on it. It has better bass than the K-Horn, by the description of its designers, Ray Delgato and Paul Klipsch. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 To answer your question...do some searches for the Electro-Voice Patrician loudspeaker. If was basically a sized-up version of the Klipschorn powered by their 18" woofer, and produced under license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 A longer, bigger bass horn will go lower, ala The Patrician. A bigger driver may not be needed since the horn itself controls lower frequencies more than the driver. The longer passages in the larger horn may limit the upper frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 I know I'm a new kid on the block, but I did hang around Paul's lab quite a bit in the 70's and hung on every word he spake. I had been made to believe that the internal length of the Klipschorn was only a starting point for the total length which was picked up by the trihedral horn formed by the two walls and the floor and could be infinite, limited only by the size of the room. I'm not quite sure why a bigger/longer folded horn would change this. A bigger driver would move more air, but would it make lower notes? I have gone through the stack of "Dope from Hope" that I have and Paul expresses opinions on the ratio of length- to-width of listening rooms, but nothing on size of rooms. My Klipshorns are in an "anathema" sized 15'X 18'room with no carpet, and yet they reproduce perfectly the low CCCC of the 32' Principal of the Metheuen Aeolian-Skinner organ. I'm talking about visceral, draft producing 16hz fundamental. (Yes, I know it isn't "flat" in that octave.) My point is --you guys are wasting your time trying to gild the lilly. That sounded harsh. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Dr Bill, You should hear my brother whine about the Forums! That wasn't harsh. I think your point is valid to a "point". The walls and floor do not continue expanding at an exponential rate (or at conical rates that approximates an exponential rate like the K-horn bass unit does) and so may not provide the needed loading to get below 40 Hz or so. Mr. Paul's design for false corners were only 4 feet from the apex of the corner to the outer edge. By saying this was enough, he implied that only the first 4 feet or so was effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 I have to agree with Tom. The throat, expansion rate, mouth will have to be re caluated for the givin low freguency cut off you desire. You won't gain anything from just scaling up. A bass horn design to get below 35Hz. gets really huge. It could easily end up being twice the size of a Klipschorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reluctant carnivore Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Hey Guys... Just wondering... Didn't the Patrician also come with a 30" woofer version or did electrovoice have a speaker model above the Patrician? Also, anyone heard these guys? I know i have seen literature about an Electro Voice unit that was a wall unit with 2 channels...like a huge book case! The EV 30" woofers show up on ebay every so often...carazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 "I'm talking about visceral, draft producing 16hz fundamental. (Yes, I know it isn't "flat" in that octave.)" The klipschorn is a 50hz horn and only has 1/2 the mouth area needed for corner mounting. It drops like a rock below 40hz. The 3rd harmonic of 16hz is 48hz. You figure it out. You're welcome to borrow my B&K calibrated mic and my HP wave analyzer if you dare. PWK published the actual response of the Klipschorn low frequency section two years ago in the JAES. Go get a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Carnivore---Early Patricians used an 18" driver in a folded corner horn. Later Patricians used the 30" driver. Look at the Hi-Fi Do website for photos of later Patricians and how the 30"er was corner loaded. Link to Hi-Fi Do from my site. I once heard a pair of early Patricians, the corner horns, in the same room with a pair of Khorns. The Patricians had deeper and more powerful bass. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 DJK---You lookin' for another pair of 076s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Gee, no one else has noticed what that photo is. Sure, I'll bite. I'm going to build a b*stard JBL Everest. I've got the mid horns and two sets of the woofers. I'm thinking the 076 instead of the 077. Don't want to use the 2426 mid driver. Thinking about a 2420 or 2470 and crossing at 500hz instead of 800hz. Was thinking about hanging the second woofer backwards at a right angle to the main woofer. Kind of a M&K sub turned on its side. You would get the benefit of push pull distortion reduction and be able to see the massive motor on the inverted woofer too. With that funky horn and 076 it would look way cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Yes, everything you say is true. But the K doesn't just stop suddenly at a given frequency. After I read your reply I hooked up my IG-5282 audio generator to my K's through my ST-70 and set it at c. 16Hz. (That's pretty much low CCCC fundamental of a 32' organ pipe.) What did I hear? NOTHING! Then I noticed the flame in one of my wife's scented candles. It was going wild. Then I put my hand on the back wall (sheetrock). It was about to work the nails out. Yes, the K's frequency response "drops like a rock" below 50 or so Hz. But at 16 Hz it doesn't take much energy to move the large area of a back wall. And, for the record, when I listen to music, I sit on a comfortable sofa with my head resting on the back wall. Ergo: Visceral, draft producing, 16 Hz. In my former life I was a voicer/finisher for Casavant Freres, Limitee, the largest and oldest pipe organ manufacturer in N. America (Canada). I could write another dissertation on standing waves and cancellation of low frequency tones in areas of less than one wave length. Just because you can't measure them by the usual methods doesn't mean that they aren't there. Sometimes you just have to touch the wall! If you are ever in Fort Worth, look us up. You'll get a good dinner and a fair glass of wine and a stunning Klipschorn demonstration and more conversation than you can stand. Father Bill+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Excellent posts, DrBill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 I'm glad you like your Klipschorns. I know I enjoyed mine. I owned my first set of Klipschorns in 1973. The room was poured concrete, below grade. Several years selling Klipsch our dealership was either number one or always in the top ten for USA Klipsch sales. I have an idea of what the Klipschorn can and can't do. I find the data that Paul Wilber Klipsch himself published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society to be accurate. Figure 9 on page 926 of volume 48, number 10, October 2000, shows the Klipschorn to be 108.5dB/W at 240hz, 97dB/W at 40hz, and 81dB/W at 20hz. Figures 10 and 11 show the 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion at about 95dB output in the 20hz~30hz region to be -8dB and -12dB respectively. At frequencies above the 50hz horn cut off the distortion drops rapidly to as low as -50dB even at levels as high as 110dB. -50dB is 0.3% distortion, a figure lower than what many tube amps can achive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornwaller Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 DRBILL, I'm not sure how to do this...so I'll wing it! I want to extend this thread to another topic entitled "Let's talk Subwoofers and the need for them". I will direct your attention and everybody else to this new post. Thanks, Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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