Quick Question, Quick Help

[djk]

I've added pre-out main-in jacks on a 430 I've got in the garage.

But I agree with HDBR, get a 730.

The Stryke woofers are very nice too. This is the one I would get(SAE 1204):

http://www.apexjr.com/speakerstuff.html

And with this amp:

http://www.apexjr.com/Apexsenior.htm

Right now Steve has a special: "Get the SAE 1204 and the Apex Senior together as a package for $250.00 "

[HDBRbuilder]

DJK,

Tell us your opinion of the 430...other than Justin and I, Invidiosulus(Josh) has one he just got in yesterday, and he seems very pleased with it so far...and it looks as though another BB member is about to "win" one on eBay for his son(but I hope he gives it a good control-cleaning and then gives it a try-out of his own first so that he can give HIS review of it).

Justin, here is a comparison between the H/K 730 and the H/K 430 in a nutshell:

Tape monitor(inputs): 430:1 730:2

Aux inputs: 430:1 730:2

Phono inputs: 430:1 730:2

Tape/out: 430:2 730:2

Pre-amp out/Main-in: 430:no 730:yes/bridged

Spkr Fuse: 430:yes 730:no

Spkr circuit breaker: 430:no 730:yes

Watts/Channel: 430:25 730:40

Tuner Section: same for both

A/C accessory plugs: one switched/one unswitched for both

AVG price on eBay(last 6 mos.): 430:$40 730:$75

Build quality is virtually identical, appearance is virtually identical, size is virtually identical. Both of these are excellent units!

[justin_tx_16]

I could sell the HK430 to my dad or grandmother, they both love the sound.

Why the 1204? Never heard of it. Only heard praise on the AV-12 and Shiva 12, never really read aobut the 1204. Right off the bat the AV-12 moves more air than both and does it with greater ease, but it is also $55 more.

That amp you showed me I can get with a remote control for $119 at parts express, really about $129.

If I connected it this way, could I keep the 430.

connect the powered outputs from speakers A from the 430 to the sub amp through the sub amps high level inputs? then get the heresy's connected to the sub amps speaker outputs. would I be able to set the x-over so that the heresy's no longer get a 20-20Khz input but more like say 80-20Khz? So the sub would kick in around 80hz? Is that how the plate amps work? So I would control the volume of the speakers and the sub with the volume controller of the HK430?

If I got the HK730, i would connect the speakers as ususal and then use the preamp output to connect to the plate amp? Sounds easy enough.

How did you make your own preamp outputs for your HK430? I have an electrical engineer friend who would be more than ecstatic to help me do that to mine.

The only inputs I use and will probably ever use is the AUX input, all i use it for is music, and now I could do the occasional movie, but I don't care so much for that right now, I have a 55" HDTV downstairs of my own to use with DVD's hehe.

How much do the 730's go for? $100?

I picked up a new CD/DVD/MP3CD/VCD/PCD player today. A 5 disc Toshiba and it works great. Much better than the Sony CD player.

[Invidiosulus]

Justin,

Using only the aux inputs is such a waste

I "discovered" vinyl yesterday, after just a few 45rpm singles and miles davis "kind of blue" it is already going to be hard to listen to my CD's.

The sound of vinyl is wonderful, cymbals are crisp without any of the aliasing that happens on CD.

The notes of an electric guitar are so well defined I can't believe what I was missing.

Maybe just maybe DVD audio or SACD sounds this good, but those are not yet available for $5 down at the used music store.

Peace, Josh

[HDBRbuilder]

Justin,

You don't want to run the Heresys from that freaking plate amp...leave them hooked to the speaker A of the H/K. Run the sub from the speaker B of the H/K, instead. That way you can just press a button on the H/K to kick the sub out.

You missed out on a 730 today that went for a "buy it now" of 89 bucks. The only other one on eBay right now is gonna go for too high a price, IMHO. There is a 630 on eBay right now that is gonna go for a decent price though...it was the one the 730 replaced in the line-up in 1976. The 730 has a few more features, but other than that it is almost identical to the 630.

The only reason I mentioned the 730 OR the 630 is because they are a bit more versatile than the 430...having more input and output connections, plus the added benefit of a pre-amp out/main amp-in.

Remember, if you unbridge those connections, using the pre-amp out, then you are uncoupling the amplifier from the preamp in the H/K 730/630! So, in order to use its amp section, you have to route a signal back into the main-amp inputs. That is why I sugested getting the 730 or 630, AND a preamp with sub-out connections on it. That way you can run lines from the H/K pre-amp out to the other preamp's inputs, then run a line BACK to the H/K's main amp-inputs FROM that other preamp's left and right pre-amp-outputs! AND you can use the other preamp's sub-out to send a signal to your powered-sub!

With the 630, or 730 this is possible without modifying them, BUT with the 430, you have to add those outputs/inputs to it!...OR use a tape loop! I would NOT suggest doing that to the 430...just because it is one of those good things that are best left alone!

I honestly believe you will run into some trouble in a dorm room with a sub...because those buildings are normally concrete/cinderblock structures with multi-stories. Freshmen normally get stuck on the upper floors(where they have to wait forever for an elevator, and/or have to run up and down stairs between classes)...and when you kick in that sub, everybody on the floors below you is gonna feel it...and MAY not like it! The same for the rooms adjacent to you. Dorms are NORMALLY basic "low-rent high-rise construction"...and they are notorious for not having ANY insulation between rooms OR between the floors!!...so, sound really travels...FAR and FAST!

The last thing you are gonna need is some burly 280lb, 6'2", pissed-off industrial arts major, who has been REALLY TRYING to concentrate on the theory portion of his Power Mechanics course for his test the next day(while the thumping of your sub has been annoying the hell outta him), end up outside your dorm room door beating it down, after he has had to run up three floors to get there!! By that time, it will be WAY TOO LATE to turn down the pomps and pipes, and throw in a Merle Haggard CD to make him happy! A word to the wise here!

If you want a sub, then by all means build one...but pay heed to what I just said about dorms!! LOL!

[justin_tx_16]

I don't really care to bring it with me to college. LIke we said the other day, I have the ProMedia's for movies and whatnot, and I would rather have a really nice setup at home. that is where this sub will stay at least till i get into a frat (if i join one at Mizzou) or my own place. THere is no room for one in a dorm. That is totally understood. I will probably only bring a ProMedia 2.1 and the heresy's with me to college, that too is understood. but for home, right now, and for when i come back on breaks, a sub would be very nice.

it may be more of the challenge and the fun in building it rather than me needing it and wanting to bring it to college. i need a project to get me off of my dr. visits and all the depressing things that come with those visits. also something to get my mind away from calculus and economics. those can not rule my life, when they do i get ulcers out the wazoo! LoL.

i went to fry's today to check out some computers, they have a technics 1200 there for $299, yeouch. i think i am going to get a nice TT. I am really excited about that. right now all i us is the AUX input and the tuner. I don't think I will need much more besides if i get the TT.

i am going to run the sub plate amp connected to the HK430 via the tape output. i will control the sub volume with its own volume control. problem solved, no need to revisit that. only question is this Andy. If i hit the lo-cut on the HK430, that will cut off the lower frequencies to the HK430. what is the crossover? i have not thoughroughly read the manual (ps, like my spelling? LoL) but i could not find where lo-cut cuts off. i would do that so that i could get more volume out of the heresy's without worring about pushing them too far because i could cut out the lower frequencies, send those to the sub via the tape out, as long as lo-cut does not also effect the tape out, which I doubt it does. tape out should be independent of any other options. that is MHO at least

BTW, I just finished watching U-571 on the HK430 with Heresy's using my new dvd player. I was pleasently surprised. I never had the volume over 8 or 9 o'clock though, my head is killing me. But whenever glass would shatter... you knew you had klipsch tweeters! LOL

[arfz28]

Justin.

connect the powered outputs from speakers A from the 430 to the sub amp through the sub amps high level inputs? then get the heresy's connected to the sub amps speaker outputs. would I be able to set the x-over so that the heresy's no longer get a 20-20Khz input but more like say 80-20Khz? So the sub would kick in around 80hz? Is that how the plate amps work? So I would control the volume of the speakers and the sub with the volume controller of the HK430?

Yes Justin this should work, run speaker wire from the hk A side speaker terminals to the plate amps high level inputs, hook up heresys to plate amps high level outputs.Adjust plate amps crossover around 60hz, about where the heresys roll off at,and you should be in buissness.Adjust the plate amps volume or loundness control to wear it blends in with the heresys. Now you should be able to use the HK receivers volume knob to control the volume of both the heresys and the sub at the same time. mening that when you turn up the volume on your hk recever it will make both the heresys and the sub louder at the same time. This will be a lot better than the tape out set up.The remote control on the plate amp, if you get that modle, will come in handy because you could adjust the crossover and turn the sub up a little if you want from your listening position, but it really aint needed because once you calabrate your sub in, you hardly change the croossover or the volume level of it.If this was my set up I would just hook the heresys up to the hk A side speaker terminals, Take speaker wire and run from the Hk B side speaker terminals to the plate amps high level inputs.Nothing will be conected to the plate amps high level outputs.This way you run your heresys full range and your sub will take care of everything below 60hz.If you dont want to listen to the sub all you have to do is press the B side speaker switch on the HK.This is the exact setup I run with my sonotube,. Hope this helps you out.

[HDBRbuilder]

Josh,

That H/K 430 has a pretty good phono section, doesn't it? LOL! What kind of turntable are you using for your vinyl with it?

[HDBRbuilder]

Justin,

The reason I suggest that you DO NOT use the plate amp's to power the Heresys is because they will NOT sound as good as they do when they are being powered by the amp section of the H/K! If you try it that way, you will see what I mean! The heart of the H/K is its CLEAN AMP SECTION!

As for using the low-cut to trim back the Heresys, I wouldn't do it...instead just adjust your sub BY EAR to blend into the Heresys' bottom-end roll-off! After all...the subs you have pictured had rotary controls, not just exact settings to pick from...so they are highly adjustable for their "kick-in" frequency! Then take some of your Mom's fingernail polish, and make a little dot there on the sub's control for a reference point. That way you can easily re-set it whenever you are done playing around with it, to where your EARS liked it to begin with! Remember, music listening has nothing to do with stated frequency ranges, etc....it isn't about oscilloscopes, and numbers, and physics....It has to do with how your EARS HEAR THE MUSIC! Once again, why take any music reproduction AWAY from the H/K's wonderful amp and the Heresys???...just SUPPLEMENT what the H/K is doing through the Heresys with the sub and its amp! Find that roll-off point where the sub needs to kick in, but leave the H/K and Heresys alone!

[justin_tx_16]

that is a better shot of the plate amp.

so are we a "go" with using the TAPE out and just manually controlling the volume? i normally "set it and forget it" as it is.

[HDBRbuilder]

Justin, sounds like a plan to me! Since you have to get up and adjust the volume on the H/K to start with, using a remote to adjust the sub to the H/K's increase in volume shouldn't be that much of a big deal.

Plate amps in general, and especially those used for subs, are not really designed to be ideal amps for the upper frequencies through efficient speakers...those upper frequencies are where your "graininess and hiss" occur. But those problems are a non-issue with the sub utself, since it doesn't reproduce them in the lower frequencies it is intended for. That is why it is best to use the clean amp section of the H/K as far down as reasonably possible, ie, where the Heresy roll-off occurs at its low-end...then let the plate amp for the sub take over below that. Letting the Heresy's low-end roll-off blend into the crossover point for the sub is how things are supposed to work anyway!

BTW, Justin...there are a couple more 430's on eBay now...what are you getting for your Grandmother and father for Christmas?? LOL!

[justin_tx_16]

it is now sunday and the forum is getting scary!....

i just worry that i will put too much volume into the heresy's and they will try to do some low frequencies and blow a woofer or something... do i need to not worry about that? guess i could just taper off the bass if i get scared, the sub will take it.

i am brining the HK430 and heresy's to my grandmother tomorrow. she loves the sound they give out and is having a big upidity dupity party at her house. gonna miss them while they are there!

she does not have the room in her parlor or her living rooms for these larger speakers. she really needs something like RB-5's becaues the room just is not there. She just has to make an exception for now because she did not have time to get anything else.

[HDBRbuilder]

Justin, as long as those Heresys are being powered by that H/K 430, you have no worries! OK? Remember, the Heresys are rated for amps with up to 105 WPC ratings...that H/K only puts out 25 wpc(actually more like 40 in reality, though)...so as long as you don't go past 2 o'clock on the 430's volume control you are sitting just fine...no clipping from the amp to worry about! That is, of course, based on you leaving the treble/bass controls flat! I sent you an e-mail.

[justin_tx_16]

got the email.

i can not handle volumes much past 12 o'clock! LoL! 2 o'clock? dare i say never?! LOL!

[djk]

HDBR, you're inspiring me to go steal my father's 730 and substitute my 430.

A stock 430 has a quasi-comp output stage, the 730 is full comp. It sounds a little smoother.

I actually cut a few traces and changed the outputs in my 430 so that it is the same as the 730 design. I added pre-out main-in so that I could add a sub. Then I bridged the 430 to drive about 100W at 8 ohms for the sub.

The 730 is a different tuner, FM only. The 330C and 430 shared the same tuner, the 330C just deleted the components for FM muting. My father has to go out to the garage to listen to football games on AM since the 730 is FM only.

Justin, The Apex SR is 380W/4R, note that the maximum draw from the line is 750W vs the 450W on the amp you're looking at. They're not the same. If you call up Steve and ask, I think he has the 380W with the remote volume control.

http://www.apexjr.com/images/sr1.jpg

Although not mentioned on the spec sheet, the Apex SR has a preamp level electronic crossover to remove the bass from the input of the amplifier driving the main speakers.

http://www.apexjr.com/images/sr3.jpg

This is important for many reasons. It reduces distortion and improves amplifier headroom. Using the speaker level inputs and hooking the main speakers to the high out does nothing for cleaning up distortion nor does it change the amplifier headroom because the amplifier is still receiving the full unfiltered signal. Using the speaker level high out does however insert a low quality electrolytic capacitor in series with your Heresy with its nice oil filled caps. This does not sound so hot.

Do you want to buy a PR? I notice the two smaller boxes for the AV12 use a PR. Because of the weight on a PR you shouldn't use them in Sonotube designs. The PR needs to be in the vertical plane or it will sag and use up all its travel. They also want another $60 or so for the PR.

The SAE 1204 is more efficent too. In conjunction with the extra amplifier power it will play over 3dB louder than the other combo. While the AV12 has a longer X-max, it would take more than 1KW to fully use it.

3dB isn't much, is it? At midrange and high frequency its not, it takes an extra 10dB to sound twice as loud in the midrange. But if you look in the 30hz~40hz range at a reasonable listening level, say 100dB, you will notice that the lines of equal loudness contour are only 3dB apart! For most intents and purposes, the SAE 1204/380W will play twice as loud as the AV12/250W.

Of course if you would stand on your head so you could see the woofer in a tube sub, the AV12 looks much sexier!

I'm sure either woofer and either amplifier would be fine. But now you know why I would buy the SAE 1204/Apex SR.

[HDBRbuilder]

DJK,

Are you SURE the 730 only has an FM tuner? I think you may be thinking about a different model, instead. See eBay item number 1944289982...look at the pic of the REAR of the 730, there. Kind of a waste to include an AM antenna on the back of it, if its tuner is FM only, agreed? From my memory, the 430, 630, 730, and 930 ALL had am/fm tuners, which were virtually identical except for the 930's tuner, which had an FET front-end. I am not sure, but I think it wasn't until the "C" version of the 330 came along that it got the same tuner as the 430 had. Even looking through my spec sheets on the 730, it shows it to have an am/fm tuner. As for the 730 being a bit smoother than the 430, I have often heard that, but have never been able to give them a side-by-side listen. Either way, I do like very much the sound that they BOTH produce!! I even like the sound of the 330C, even though it isn't as pronounced with its bass, and ends up lacking in punch during complex passages because it isn't twin-powered!

One of the reasons that I suggested to Justin to just go get a 730 instead of going through all those modifications on the 430 is because, by the time he pays for all the items he is gonna need to make those changes, it may well add up to the cost of a decent 730 off eBay to begin with!...especially so if you figure his labor time investment into the equation!

No matter what the particular innard detail differences between various models of this twin-powered series are, I have always been amazed at just how good each and every one of the models is in their overall performance and reliability. There just NEVER were many more than a handful of S/S receivers from other manufacturers that are even in the same class, IMHO! What makes them even better today, is how inexpensively they can be grabbed up on the used market! Hell, for the price of 3 or 4 CD's, you can have one helluva fine little base unit for a potentially great-sounding stereo system! Just add a good source(other than a tuner), some speakers, and you are all set!!

[jstanton8]

Hey Justin:

I'm getting a sub built with the 15" Stryke driver by Kyle Richarson at Acousic Visions. I was steered there by DustinB after inquiring on this forum about adding serious low end to my system. I had previously bought a 700 W (mono) pro amplifier on Ebay. Kyle told me what he would build if he were building a sub for HIMSELF, in about the $500 price range (& without amplifier). To wit: the Stryke 15" driver, one or two passive radiators (I'm getting two 18" Stryke PRs...based on Dustin's advice,) and they're being put in a 142 liter (5 cu. ft.) enclosure. Kyle says it will blow anything away in it's price range.

That 15" Stryke needs quite a bit of power though, so if you go that way I would be prepared to feed it at least 500 watts...

The way I look at it, why pay twice what a subwoofer cost the company to build just so they can cover their R&D costs? Why not get a subwoofer equivalent or better than an SVS/Klipsch/Velodyne/et al. for a fraction of the price? Why subsidize a company's R&D costs at your expense (unless you want to do that and can afford it)?

I want more bang for my buck, so for me DIY or Have-Someone-Else-Do-It-For-You is the way to go. With excellent advice from people like DustinB and other kind people available on this forum, this is the route I decided to take...