Klipsch Shrill?...NOT

[Audio Flynn]

"Lately I have been browsing different forums and find a lot of people saying "they are fatiguing"

Can someone explain first what the heck they are talking about, and second if they are all FOS (figure it out)"

I came across this comment in the HT and since allot of posters just hang in this arena; it is a point I have pondered.

Laid back speaker lines like B&W IMHO mask or hide the inferior character of:

1. Amps(of course)

2. Sources(digital is the most sensitive)

3. EMI nasties from TV and other household stuff

4. mabe even cables(oh no not cables! HEHE)

Random thoughts from my various components

1. My wife loves her Kenwood CD changer as a source into my MSB Link DAC. Hard to define character of a transport but it sounds kind of muddy or congested compared to my Sony DVD or Panasonic RP91 as transports.

Anybody like a CD changer really well? I could use a reference.

2. The best radio station.

Christmas music from the Dish Network Satellite optical output to the Sherwood Newcastle separates(it is a 20 bit 5 year old DAC but well implemented in this preamp) into the RB-5s.

No commercials and great variety(not enough Chipmunks hits). I am a Holiday theme music nut.

It is where HT and 2 channel meet; it is not fatiguing. I can listen for hours.

3. Some(lots) music was recorded or mastered poorly.

First listening to Who's Next CD on the Chorus some songs were either mastered or recorded on different systems. Some songs sounded totally different.

I can now hear microphones overdriving and other software source defects; it is not the Chorus at 2 watts.

--------------------

Klipsch just allows you to diagnose the other fatiguing aspects of your system better than other speakers and for that I am quite grateful.

Out to get a tree.

Rick

[Deang]

I just think horns tell the brutal truth about what is going on downstream. People typically hear Klipsch in showrooms hooked up to low budget mass market receivers, and dirt cheap DVD players. Yeah, they probably do sound like crap.

Seems this guy once said, "If you don't like what's coming out, you wouldn't like what's going in".

[TBrennan]

Rick---I think some Klipsches most certainly are harsh, "fierce" I like to say. I owned 2 sets of LaScalas and it was the harshness of the LS midrange that got me to experimenting with other midrange horns. IME the excessive directionality of the K-400 horn can cause a harshness in certain rooms, certainly in mine. Note also that many older heritages with Atlas mid drivers suffer from a resonant spike at 9khz.

This harshness may be room and distance dependant but in my room EV and Altec horns sound much better than Klipsch speakers with K-400 and K-600 mid horns. Understand that this is my opinion, what I call harshness others might enjoy and call "life" or clarity.

In any case "real" Klipsches certainly have a different voicing than other horn speakers such as EV Sentrys or Altec VOTs; what voicing one likes is a matter of taste.

www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

[Deang]

Here he goes again with the "real" Klipsches bit

[Randy Bey]

Tom,

It may be what you were feeding those lascalas.

SS sounds steely and harsh. I had a friend, still do actually, who has big watt amps and Vanderstein speakers. He always thought my khorns sounded bad until I got tubes.

Then he changed his tune; said they sounded better than his (which I had been saying for years).

GIGO.

[TBrennan]

Randy---No, it wasn't the amps I was using, it was the speakers. Altec and EVs sounded better, different anyway, with the same amplification. And putting the EV SM-120A horns in greatly alleviated the problem. I found the shrillness SO glaring that no way it was an amplifier problem.

In any case it may be pertinent to raise a philosophical question here now that you brought this up. It seems a fair amount of people are saying that Klipsches only sound good with tube amplification. This is odd, it's as though one must use amps with opposite coloration of the speakers to get good sound, that one needs offsetting flaws.

Personally I'd rather correct the speaker's flaw, too much upper midrange energy on axis, in the speaker itself rather than look for an amp that would offset the flaw by acting as an EQ. A good speaker should sound good with any competant amplifier. Sound better with some than with others? Yes, I can buy that. But it should at least sound good driven by any decent amp. And in all my years with this hobby I've only heard a handful of amps that were really bad.

Know what I mean?

[Deang]

OTOH -- all speakers are "voiced" using one thing or another, and Paul Klipsch used low powered tube amps to voice the Heritage stuff, so it shouldn't be surprising that they sound "right" with tube gear.

If one is going to drive something like the Scalas with something that has a completely different signature than what they were voiced with -- it makes sense that some modifications are in order to restore the "rightness". Seems to me that much of this could really be done by tweaking the crossover, instead of yanking drivers.

Ironically though, the RF-7's were voiced with solid state, but they also respond well to tubes.

Hell, I don't know.

Disregard the post...it's time for bed.

[Audio Flynn]

The Paul K. design philosophy origonated befoe SS i beleive.

[arco]

Problem is, I believe, that most people think: "Horn speaker = sensitive speaker = "easy" speaker". They are wrong, of course...

A horn can do wonders either with 0.5W/ch or 100W/ch amps but those components must be carefully chosen, so as to be synergistic, i.e. to "sing" with this kind of speaker. For example, no amplifier that likes to "drive" and - at the same time - "be driven" (via EMF) has normally any luck with horns. Then, even in the company of synergistic components horns are much more prone to fine tuning, than other loudspeakers.

People in this forum know perfectly well those things. Outsiders - especially those who only know horns as part of badly set-up P.A. systems don't, hence the bad reputation of horns in Hi-Fi circles.

[j-malotky]

You guys are preaching to the choir here.

You need to start preaching to the sinners at the other forums about the truth revealed by the Heritage series.

JM

[TBrennan]

The trouble with the "but the speaker was voiced with tubes" theory is that I hear the same sound I object to when tubes are used. A friend was recently using LaScalas with 300B SETs and it was the same sound. Well of course, since the coloration I object to is caused by the speaker's directivity, this directivity is gonna stay the same regardless of the amplifier used. A secondary cause of the shrillness is the LaScala'a overall lightweight overall tonal balance which makes any midrange aberations stand out all the more. This tonal balance will not be effected by an accurate amplifier.

I think it all gets down to this; when ole PWK went from a radial horn to the K-400 horn the sound was effected in a way that I don't like. It's that simple. Amplifiers have nothing to do with it.

[arco]

Problem is we try to be "logical" with things Hi-Fi, when - according to my experience - the contrary is usually the norm.

300B amps? O.K. I have a set of SUN AUDIO 300B monoblocks which created "magic" with my previous speakers. Not with the KH's, though...Same problem with an AUDIO NOTE Meishu 300B integrated, I had personally upgraded with all the possible goodies (silver paper in oils, Black Gates, Tantalums etc) and which was sounding just perfect with these same (and other non horn...)speakers. I still own both amps and from time to time I demo them on the KH's with the same - mediocre - results. And these are good components, believe me...

Result: I have built another set of 300B amps which do the job without ifs or buts. How did I know these will work? Well, I didn't. I just was lucky...

That's why I use the term "synergy" which - by the way - has nothing to do with amplifier quality or technology. It's just like human relations: Either there is the right "chemistry" and they work, either they don't. And you can always try to explain why...

[Doug C]

Over the past year I've been reading alot about the new SACD and DVD-A formats. Supporters of both formats, including Sony have come right out and stated that the current CD format with it's lower sampling rates just does not cut it for serious music listeners. Now I realize they have to say this to sell the new formats but based on my experimentation (curde as it may be) I think there is a lot of truth to the inadequacies of CD.

I tend to think that my Klipsch RF-5's are very true to the source (revealing). I think the grainy tendency I hear with the RF-5's when using good quality SS amps is actually very close to what's coming off the CD. Now I can tame that grainy quality by using my Paradigm Studio 100's (coloration of the source) but the sacrifice is loss of detial on more delicate material. Meaning some CD's just loose all their life.

I agree that my tube amp (Decware Select 2 watt/channel) colors or smooths out the sound. For my taste I would rather have a speaker that is brutally honest. For me this makes getting the "right" upstream equipment synergy a much easier task.

I love the music my Marantz CD-17, Decware Select amp and Klipsch RF-5's crank out. I've listened to the entire Reference line at dealers and have not been impressed. Most systems were set-up to blow you away with HT or speaker placement and/or room acoustics were poor for music play.

Doug C

[dkbks]

To get back to the original issue: fatiguing.

Have you ever listened to a system and after a hour or so (sometimes less), just wanted to turn it off & do something else? This is what is meant by "fatiguing". It just tires you out though you may not be aware of the cause. It could be the speakers (non-Klipsch). or, as you said. poor amplification or crappy digital source. The nastiness in the sound may be subliminal but it doesn't take long to tire of it. When you read a post of someone unable to turn off their system for hours, then they have source, amplification, and speakers working all together. I very rarely tire of hearing my Cornwalls with low power SS amp and other posts here indicate the same with Heresies, K-horns and similar. Haven't tried tubes yet but want to eventually.

[BerndH]

I like to play my Klipschorns at or near at concert levels. I too found that depending on the source i'm unable to listen more than 1 hour. Some CDs, i.e. Faith No More's The Real Thing album, were completely unlistenable cause of harshness.

I believe it's true that the chain source-amp-speaker must be right choosen. A tube amp is for my actual bugdet to expensive. So i decided to try another mid horn (EV SM120A). Now the chain is right in my ears and i can listen for hours. What's wrong with that way?

No one in this forum blames anyone who changed his crossover for better listening results, but in this thread i'm said change your amp and not the speakers. Why?

Bernd

[Randy Bey]

Tom,

I'd like to hear some Altecs someday; perhaps I will.

I just don't get it though when people (you are not alone) say that the k400 is shrill or harsh, or causes headaches, etc.

There is nothing farther from my mind when listening to my stereo.

Did I subconsciously adjust the sound by finding components that 'complemented' each other by minimizing flaws? Maybe. How the heck can I tell?

But the results are very good; best I've ever heard.

[AnalOg]

Hi

I'll agree with Doug on this, I have done A,B comparisons with many different types of music between record album and cd sources. The "fatigue factor" spoken of is defenitly there in cd source, Klipsch tells the truth!

[pzannucci]

Yes it has to with sources but I find that a number of Klipsch speakers are HOT on the high frequency side.

K-Horns - very listenable, not super articulate but very alive

La Scalas - More high frequency balance than K-horns

Cornwall IIs - put thin piece of foam in tweeter to cut some h/f

Forte IIs - same as Cornwalls - both sound fantastic with a little less edge

KLF-30s - built l-pad for tweeter dropping approx 2db

Heresy II - quite reasonable but the tweeter isn't as clean

Heresy 1.5 - with K-77 tweeter, h/f too peaky

RB-5s - put felt in the sides of the throat of the horn to cut some h/f.

I have owned all of the above and multiples of the K-horns so I apparently like Klipsch speakers. Still own the last three pairs there.

Each person will have their own opinions. Some folks live for that h/f content and a high level of h/f content make speakers seem more revealing and detailed when they might not really be as a full system.

Tube amplifiers many times cause their own sound since they are very impedance sensitive and we know that these horns are far from smooth in that dept.