Do you need a horn subwoofer for your Klipschorn/ Lascala home theater?

[Travis In Austin]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:30 PM, Dante Farfan said:

Hello, how are you, I would like to know if someone could help me solve a problem.  I am going to buy some KLIPSCHORN manufactured on September 24, 1957, but I would like to know that Driver had the wooden horn?.... brand: Klipsch or University SAHF..., I can put the photos, on the Stickers of the cabinet it says SAHF, I need know which was the genuine, original for Sep 1957 .... thank you very much

Ask this question in the Ask the Historian Section of the Forum, and you will get the accurate answer from the Historian. We have a 57 Khorn up and running in the Feild House, and Jim Hunter knows all about those drivers. 

[Travis In Austin]

18 hours ago, Gnote said:

This is what I was questioning.

There are many great non horn loaded bass bins and subs but I find this statement misleading.

I think you are reading too much into it, I understand the point you are making, people who have room and means for a horn loaded sub-woofer usually prefer it over direct radiators. 

 

But that doesn't mean to him they don't work "every bit as good as the horn."

 

I think the real gist of his post is how to cross over for movies, run full range so all LFE goes into Khorn left and right to retain "all the snap and slam" and "if you want the biggest slam try it." (Original post below, emphasis in bold is mine). 

 

I think what he is also trying to say is if you have Khorns, the conventional wisdom, normal AVR instructions on how to set cross over don't apply to them. This is very, very true. 

 

I do agree, everybody I know that changed out their direct radiator subs (684s, etc.) and got either an 1802 or a 1502 greatly preferred the horn loaded bass, except one guy. JC pipes has always preferred thumping DR bass because of the music he prefers and what he grew up with. He is running full stack 600 system in his house with the DR Sub module at the bottom.

 

I think it's a simple matter of just saying, "well yes, that may be true if it is "slam" that you are looking for. However, there is another school of thought on that, by going with horn loaded bass (if you can) some/many/most say they get X, Y and Z. 

 

Maybe one day Chief Bonehead will offer a "Heritage" subwoofer, knowing him it will be horn loaded. 

 

 

 

Original Post:

 

No , you do not. But that’s not to say that I have anything against going with a horn subwoofer either . The Klipschorn is a different animal when it comes to subwoofers ,  because it puts out arguably some of the best low bass available down to 40 hz or so ,and it does this with very high output . So what to do? Well I’ll tell you what you don’t want to do , don’t crossover your Klipschorn, at 90 hz 😳cause you just lost some of the best bass known to mankind. If you can crossover at 40 hz , much much better, but in my view the very best solution is to run the Klipschorn full range sending all LFE to left and right Klipschorn  and a duplicate pre out signal to your subwoofer setup . This arrangement requires rear subwoofer placement. With this arrangement the subwoofer augments the low bass from the lowest frequency to where the Klipschorn naturally rolls off ,or a bit more if desired ( using the subwoofer variable crossover dial). A simple first or second order filter can be incorporated into the speakers at 20-30 hz or so , if your concerned about them not being able to handle the  LF . My experience is that they can handle full range no problem.  ( in a home theater application )This set up allows you to retain all the snap and slam that the K-horns give you (and quality). And to just simply add to the lowest octave that needs help. I’ve experimented with this stuff endlessly,and if you want the biggest slam try it . For reference I’m using 4 HSU tn1220 subs in one rear corner ,500 watts per sub.

[Tom05]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:41 AM, Travis In Austin said:

I think you are reading too much into it, I understand the point you are making, people who have room and means for a horn loaded sub-woofer usually prefer it over direct radiators. 

 

But that doesn't mean to him they don't work "every bit as good as the horn."

 

I think the real gist of his post is how to cross over for movies, run full range so all LFE goes into Khorn left and right to retain "all the snap and slam" and "if you want the biggest slam try it." (Original post below, emphasis in bold is mine). 

 

I think what he is also trying to say is if you have Khorns, the conventional wisdom, normal AVR instructions on how to set cross over don't apply to them. This is very, very true. 

 

I do agree, everybody I know that changed out their direct radiator subs (684s, etc.) and got either an 1802 or a 1502 greatly preferred the horn loaded bass, except one guy. JC pipes has always preferred thumping DR bass because of the music he prefers and what he grew up with. He is running full stack 600 system in his house with the DR Sub module at the bottom.

 

I think it's a simple matter of just saying, "well yes, that may be true if it is "slam" that you are looking for. However, there is another school of thought on that, by going with horn loaded bass (if you can) some/many/most say they get X, Y and Z. 

 

Maybe one day Chief Bonehead will offer a "Heritage" subwoofer, knowing him it will be horn loaded. 

 

 

 

Original Post:

 

No , you do not. But that’s not to say that I have anything against going with a horn subwoofer either . The Klipschorn is a different animal when it comes to subwoofers ,  because it puts out arguably some of the best low bass available down to 40 hz or so ,and it does this with very high output . So what to do? Well I’ll tell you what you don’t want to do , don’t crossover your Klipschorn, at 90 hz 😳cause you just lost some of the best bass known to mankind. If you can crossover at 40 hz , much much better, but in my view the very best solution is to run the Klipschorn full range sending all LFE to left and right Klipschorn  and a duplicate pre out signal to your subwoofer setup . This arrangement requires rear subwoofer placement. With this arrangement the subwoofer augments the low bass from the lowest frequency to where the Klipschorn naturally rolls off ,or a bit more if desired ( using the subwoofer variable crossover dial). A simple first or second order filter can be incorporated into the speakers at 20-30 hz or so , if your concerned about them not being able to handle the  LF . My experience is that they can handle full range no problem.  ( in a home theater application )This set up allows you to retain all the snap and slam that the K-horns give you (and quality). And to just simply add to the lowest octave that needs help. I’ve experimented with this stuff endlessly,and if you want the biggest slam try it . For reference I’m using 4 HSU tn1220 subs in one rear corner ,500 watts per sub.

Thanks for the post , you explained perfectly what I was trying to get at, but maybe failed at , I wasn’t advocating that people should swap out there horn subs  .The part of my post that you underlined really was the gist of the whole thing . BTW from my experience ,running the  Khorn  full range, with even just a single direct radiator , will cover  a multitude of subwoofer inadequacies , because it’s  only being used to  cover a very small range of response after which, the Khorn takes over with full glory.  ( cover to a point of course , more capacity is needed if you plan to fully keep up). I thought the topic might   start an interesting conversation , oh well 🤓

[seti]

I hated every sub I ever tried with my fully horn loaded systems in my room. To me it just made things worse. That was until I heard and tried the HLS. It is a game changer for horn guys.

 

 

[Tom05]

1 hour ago, seti said:

I hated every sub I ever tried with my fully horn loaded systems in my room. To me it just made things worse. That was until I heard and tried the HLS. It is a game changer for horn guys.

 

Sweet , the good stuff

[Tom05]

On 1/15/2022 at 2:01 AM, Islander said:

I’ve never seen the logic behind cutting off the bass output and having the sub(s) take over for the bottom couple of octaves in order to “avoid stressing” the main speakers.  With rare (likely very rare) exceptions, speakers are built to operate full range, all the way to the bottom of their range.  If they’re fed notes that are too low for them to reproduce, the notes won’t come out. That’s all.  Most speakers can’t reproduce the lowest notes in many types of music, thus the need for subwoofers.

 

After a little experimenting with running my main speakers (originally a pair of older La Scalas, now a pair of 2-way bi-amped La Scala IIs with Jubilee tweeters) set as Small, it didn’t take long to realize that I preferred how they sounded when set to Large/Full-Range.  Mo’ better bass, in short.

 

One thing that some (or many?) people seem to forget is that just as main speakers don’t have a sharp low-end cutoff (La Scala start to roll off at around 100 Hz, but continue to produce some bass sounds down to around 50 Hz), subwoofers don’t have a sharp high-end cutoff either.  The impression of sharp cutoffs at the frequency limits of speakers, full-range or subwoofer, is what leads some folks to set the sub hi-cut at 50 Hz when used with La Scalas.  Checking with a test CD (or other bass tone source) and an SPL meter will soon show a wide dip in output in the 50-100 Hz range.

 

That’s why I usually recommend that for use with La Scalas, the smoothest bass response occurs when the sub(s) are set to roll off at 100-120 Hz.  Boundary reinforcement comes into play in the bass region, so it’s a good idea to experiment with the speaker positions, particularly the distance from the front wall (the wall behind the Front speakers).  If your room is symmetrical and you can locate your speakers near the corners of the room, that’s great, but it’s unlikely that the first spot you put them in will be the ideal place.  Smooth/even response is what you’re after.

 

Contrary to the recommendations in many hi-fi magazines, most Heritage Series speakers do not sound their best when they’re located several feet from any walls.  Klipschorns have to be in corners, and La Scalas like to be fairly close to the front wall, which is good, because they would take up a lot of space if they were placed out into the room.

 

As for horn-loaded subs, the concept of matching them with horn-loaded speakers makes sense, but they start to get really big if they go deep, like the Klipsch 1802 and 1502 subs.  My living room is not really big enough to accommodate either one of those.  Also, horn-loaded subwoofers that are plug ‘n play, complete with amplifiers and crossovers, are pretty rare.  For these reasons, I went with direct-firing subs.  Since I generally listen at low to moderate volume levels, whether the subs can “keep up” with the JubScala IIs at max volume is irrelevant to me.  Your situation may be totally different, of course, so don’t take my opinions for iron-clad rules.  Experiment, and see what sounds best in your room with your gear.

Took  another look at your post here ,  lots of good comment , I’ve had the Khorns since 1986 and I always kringed at the thought of removing any low bass from the big Klipschorn , and  then try like hell to replace what was removed  with something else that would  be better .

[Tom05]

Here is my humble ported setup, works great for a 16hz to 50 hz overlay to the full range  Khorns . 2000 watts and ugly . I know it’s nothing to look at , just clean tight and functional. If you want 130 db output ,forget this ,cause there all in at only 120 db  ,at my prime seating position.🤓

[DJ7675]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:14 PM, Tom05 said:

Here is my humble ported setup, works great for a 16hz to 50 hz overlay to the full range  Khorns . 2000 watts and ugly . I know it’s nothing to look at , just clean tight and functional. If you want 130 db output ,forget this ,cause there all in at only 120 db  ,at my prime seating position.🤓

120dB at what frequency?

[Tom05]

5 hours ago, DJ7675 said:

120dB at what frequency?

Good question,  30hz ,@ 120 db ,  about three db less at 25hz as I recall , and continues producing lower peak output as the frequency gets lower  . Less ultimate output as you go lower in frequency. They play flat within their output capability  , I get a really flat response with this setup down to 20 hz  at my chair ,then falls off fast below that . Welcome to the forum 

[DJ7675]

That is a lot of output. Nice.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:43 AM, Tom05 said:

Good question,  30hz ,@ 120 db ,  about three db less at 25hz as I recall , and continues producing lower peak output as the frequency gets lower  . Less ultimate output as you go lower in frequency. They play flat within their output capability  , I get a really flat response with this setup down to 20 hz  at my chair ,then falls off fast below that . Welcome to the forum 

You're sitting in a peak region of the modal response.

[Tom05]

28 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You're sitting in a peak region of the modal response.

Yea , me and the wife  , B T W is that you posing with PWK in your avatar? 

[Tom05]

52 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You're sitting in a peak region of the modal response.

The subwoofers work good , Im sure there not quite as good as your  setup , but I’ve heard lots of them and it’s pretty darn good , not the abomination that you may think .🤓

[ClaudeJ1]

On 5/15/2022 at 8:57 PM, Tom05 said:

Yea , me and the wife  , B T W is that you posing with PWK in your avatar? 

YES, August 1985, one year before Roy Started there. Jim Hunter was a great guy to meet, as well as Gary Gillum who designed the MWM with Paul.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 5/15/2022 at 9:25 PM, Tom05 said:

The subwoofers work good , Im sure there not quite as good as your  setup , but I’ve heard lots of them and it’s pretty darn good , not the abomination that you may think .🤓

I have added, temporarily, a JBL, Bass Reflex, theater sub facing backwards against a back wall. It's about 10 cubic feet external (8 internal) tuned to 25 Hz. I also have a Seismic Horn by Bruce Edgar.

 

As one of the few people who has owned and/or designed and/or built sealed, Bass Reflex, full horns, long horns, short horns, and Tapped Horns (latest going down to 12 hz.) I can HONESTLY say that they ALL move AIR at various velocities, as called for by the rare program material that cause them to exist in the first place!

[Tom05]

 

9 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I have added, temporarily, a JBL, Bass Reflex, theater sub facing backwards against a back wall. It's about 10 cubic feet external (8 internal) tuned to 25 Hz. I also have a Seismic Horn by Bruce Edgar.

 

As one of the few people who has owned and/or designed and/or built sealed, Bass Reflex, full horns, long horns, short horns, and Tapped Horns (latest going down to 12 hz.) I can HONESTLY say that they ALL move AIR at various velocities, as called for by the rare program material that cause them to exist in the first place!

I would  bet that perfect harmony has been created with your setup , no doubt in my mind . 🤓

[ClaudeJ1]

22 hours ago, Tom05 said:

 

I would  bet that perfect harmony has been created with your setup , no doubt in my mind . 🤓

Harmony is progressing and elusive. I'm actually going to reduce my 11 channel (plus 2 subs, front and reaar) setup to only 2 channels on the ceiling (4 is marginal there), and have 3 subs instead of just 2. Bass is expensive and hard to get reasonably flat all over small rooms, that's for sure.

[Tom05]

I’d like to experiment with two ceiling channels myself ( a new direction for me ), maybe  this winter .

On 9/7/2023 at 6:03 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Harmony is progressing and elusive. I'm actually going to reduce my 11 channel (plus 2 subs, front and reaar) setup to only 2 channels on the ceiling (4 is marginal there), and have 3 subs instead of just 2. Bass is expensive and hard to get reasonably flat all over small rooms, that's for sure.

My room may not allow enough distance to accommodate ceiling  speakers , I like a fair amount of space between surround speakers and my ears , I imagine the same principle will apply here also . Good luck dropping down to two channels, give us a  critique on your results, I’d be interested 🤓