Little Sweetie Forum amplifier project

[Area 51]

29 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

I did hear from him that he is using it but have not heard from him what he thinks about the sound. Time will tell. 

All in all Sweetie seems to have survived the journey unscathed and appears to be well, successfully transplanted.

 

It's way too early for any kind of conclusions about Sweetie. In fact, I'm so tired I won't even describe any first impressions at this time (it's the middle of the night here). I'll just say Sweetie seems to have been successfully integrated into the #9 audio world. We'll play more later. 

[henry4841]

Maynard suggested a full kit amplifier recently which I agreed is a good deal for a beginning diy'er to start with. Looking over the instructions on the Exordium in section 2 there is an excellent explanation on the operation of a 3 stage tube amplifier such as this Sweetie and Zen with a few differences but in general much the same. https://www.analogethos.com/diytubekit    https://www.analogethos.com/_files/ugd/c50b96_f715978ca36c43dea840b29f882941c5.pdf

For those interested in the operation of most of the 3 circuit SET's the article is a great place to learn. Much better than the description I previously tried to do on this thread.

[henry4841]

Guys I am like the rest of the visitors to this thread wondering what Area51 thinks of the 6Y6 tube sound. I am the first to admit it has a sound all it's on. I am fortunate in having 10 other tube amps to compare it too. All are ones that I have built over the years. I could not afford all the many different amplifiers I have if I had not built them the last 10 years. Trust me the 6Y6 sounds noticeably different than the other tube amps I own. Most of the others if you put them in SET or PP  groups sound, just in a subtle ways, different from each other. Comparing the sound to the other SET's to the 6Y6 tube and it is going to be noticeably different. It is hard for me to express what I am hearing without one actually hearing a 6Y6 tube. I like to think of as how it was the sound my Grandpa or possibly my Great Grandpa heard in his 1930 radio. Very few people had amplifiers as we know them back then. This is a very old tube. From what little I can find about it I found that it was before the 6V6. The 6V6 tube was introduced in 1936 so you can see what I mean about being old. I am not old enough to have ever heard a 6Y6 before the last few years building the Sweetie. As I said it sounds different and sorta grew on me a little more each each time I swapped it in and took another amplifier out. I do go back and forth from SS to tube amplifiers on a regular basis. Granted the SS ones I listen with the most are the single ended ones like a SET tube amplifier. I like that kind of sound whether tube or SS. The other crowd is the PP SS or PP tube guys. There is a distinct difference between a PP and SE, or SET  sound. But in the SET crowd there is the old 6Y6 sound. I am sure there are other old tubes that sound much the same as the 6Y6 but a lot and possible most of them are gone. Very rare to find an amplifier using any of those really old tubes. It is more lush and has a tone like I have  not heard except in just one of my other tube amps and I am not going to say which one it is other than it was an expensive one to build. At least for my pocketbook. Today is the first whole day Area51 has had to listen to it and let's see if the sound grows on him as it did with me. 

[Area 51]

9 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Guys I am like the rest of the visitors to this thread wondering what Area51 thinks of the 6Y6 tube sound.

 

I haven't listened to these Cornwall speakers in quite a while. Now, Sweetie has them all to herself. I finally set up my HIP Heresies and old Yamaha receiver in the shop area here and that's mostly what I have been listening to for the last few days so that's one basis for comparison. I'm really happy with those speakers so far. Otherwise, I'm listening to a pair of Amazon Echo Studio speakers in the living quarters and I'm more than a little surprised to find I like them a lot so that's another basis for comparison but It's way too early for any kind of conclusions about Sweetie.

 

Today: Enya. Well suited to Sweetie, I think. Streaming Amazon Music. Threw in a little Supertramp for variety. Cowboy Junkies Trinity Session. A little Steely Dan on CD. I keep coming back to Enya  - because Sweetie and Enya seem to work so well together. Maybe that was predictable. Is that the 6Y6 tube sound I was told about? Female vocals? 

 

Some of my basis for comparison is what I remember of the solid state Schitt Vidar and Aegir combination through the Cornwall IIIs. More present in the front of my mind, right between the ears, is the impression those HIP Heresies have made on me. I've had them playing for less than a week and it's an understatement to say I'm impressed. They're out in the open with plenty of room to breathe, filling the shop. Speaker placement is just about right. The Cornwalls (and Sweetie), on the other hand, are in my much smaller living room where listening position is critical. 

Yeah, you're reading my mind. Can I take Sweetie out to the shop and turn her loose on those Heresies? Straight, with no preamp? Why not? So far, I'm learning more about speaker placement in my listening areas than collecting impressions about my newest family member, Sweetie. Well, at least I know she likes Enya. 

[henry4841]

Thanks for posting. Keep telling us more of your impressions of the Sweetie. I would prefer a more source, Sweetie, speaker setup as well. Sound going as straight as possible with less equipment to wade through. It makes a difference in the quality of sound. Less is more philosophy. Ditch those mp3's and get the Fluance out as well. 🙂 One thing I can hear is the quality of the recording between LP's, my primary listening source. Recently acquired 6 or 8 Barbara Mandell LP's and at least one of them sounds like crap using the Sweetie and it is not the LP but a lousy recording. Good enough for the engineer, I guess, for listeners via car radio. As they say in the copy machine business, if you put crap in you are going to get crap out. I was not a fan of Barbara's when she was in her prime but now I have found the lady had a really good voice. My taste in music has changed over the decades. 

 

In my room this 1 watt amplifier has plenty of power using my horn speaker setup. This is for most of use elder gentlemen and not for you young chaps, under 53, that still have a little wild streak in you and like to shake walls. I usually turn the volume up until I get a good wide sound stage and no further. Hey,  I can still hear pretty good for being 73 years old by being sensible with that knob. Cannot say the same for some of my friends that listened to music extremely loud when young. Do not get me wrong, I have been known to crank it up on occasions but not like I did in my younger years. You young whipper snappers better listen to an old man about what can happen to your hearing if you listen to too loud a music too often when you are young. Fill the room with sound and then stop. I use a simple 1st order crossover much like the Klipsch first model A network. Known for filling sound at lower volumes. My understanding is the steeper the crossover network the more you have to turn that knob to have a good soundstage. With any Klipsch speaker, that are so efficient 95db or better, the Sweetie should create a good wide soundstage with it's 1 watt of power. With sensible listeners, not wall shakers. It does benefit with use of a sub but that can be said of any LaScala owner. There are plenty of SS and tube PP amplifiers for you wall shakers. This amplifier is not going to be for you. Quality of sound vs quantity is what the Sweetie is all about. In other words a good ol' SET tube amplifier for sensible listeners. I have many amplifiers, I would take pictures of them but then you would see how I am a hoarder, under coffee tables in den and stacked on top of each other as well in the den. That is not the only room either where the have accumulated over the years. Oh well, why not. Just the Den though.

[henry4841]

[henry4841]

You can get by with this if you live by yourself for 27 years. And this is just one room of my house. 🙂

[henry4841]

Anyone want to see some mahogany furniture I built 25 years ago.

 

 

[henry4841]

9 hours ago, Area 51 said:

 

Is that the 6Y6 tube sound I was told about? Female vocals? 

 

Well, at least I know she likes Enya. 

That is where it shines, vocals and tone. The sound takes me back to the 1920's and 30's. This is the sound they heard at that time. One has to put in perspective what tubes were at that time in history. They were the newest and best active device invented for 40 years. It was that long before transistors became common place and replaced the tube market. Much like transistor circuits they pretty much had it down pat the first 10 years. Not much has changed in tube circuits since the first decade. The designers and engineers got it right by that time. Oh sure some people play with different parts in a circuit now but for the most part much the same especially in 3 circuit SET amplifiers. Hard to make it any better from what the old guys did in them old schematics. Some use a SS device to do some part a tube used to do and I cannot see anything wrong with doing that if it is not in the audio part of the circuit. Like using SS rectifiers instead of a tube to do that job. Rectifying is not in the signal path. Certainly new ways of production of the components has advanced. Take for instance the talk of adding a choke in the power supply of this amplifier. I cannot see any way it is needed. The old guys used chokes because they were cheaper than capacitors to filter the ripple out of the DC. These days with modern high value capacitors being so cheap one can use high value caps and resistors to do the job that required chokes and small value caps in yesteryears . I bet you anything if the old guys were here now they would use the new capacitors and resistors instead of chokes and low value high priced capacitors for filtering. An amplifier like this Sweetie was the best available sound maker during that time. Most was in radios but for the most part the audio portion of an old radio was the same 3 circuit amplifier with two more tubes added for receiving and detecting the radio waves before passing the signal along to the 2 circuits that make up the amplifier part of the radio. That is the reason for more tubes in an old radio. 

[henry4841]

I see we have another thread on the forum talking about capacitors. Like Dean (Crankysoldermeister) said, most of the time those threads do not end well. I cannot see that much to say about a capacitor. It seems it is a common part audiophiles like to talk about. Something to do I guess. The way I see it is it stops DC and lets AC through. That and the lower the number value of the capacitor the more it effects the high frequencies. Pretty much it if it is made right, which I will say all the capacitors sold by electronic houses such as Mouser are, will do the job just as good. The arguing starts with those aftermarket caps offered for sale from the small guys. I just about bet you money they intentionally roll off some of the high frequencies which pleases a large crowd of audiophiles. As long as people like and buy them they will keep making them. A designer can do the same thing with a electronic circuit when designing an amplifier without resorting to a high price boutique capacitor. 

 

I guess it does no harm discussing capacitors on this forum but I am afraid since Klipsch is now offering their approved capacitors for their speakers Klipsch will not take a liking to such talk. Probably best to avoid that kind of talk around the boss. Klipsch is the boss on this forum. 

[jjptkd]

10 hours ago, Area 51 said:

I haven't listened to these Cornwall speakers in quite a while. Now, Sweetie has them all to herself. I finally set up my HIP Heresies and old Yamaha receiver in the shop area here and that's mostly what I have been listening to for the last few days so that's one basis for comparison. I'm really happy with those speakers so far.

Yeah, you're reading my mind. Can I take Sweetie out to the shop and turn her loose on those Heresies? 

 

 Even though the shop is a bigger space the HIP's (if stock) are 3db higher in sensitivity than the Cornwall you may be surprised how well they'll work together I'd give it a try nothing to lose.

[henry4841]

I thought I would mention, I got my new old used signal generator I bought on Ebay today. I like it. Much easier to use than one of those $100 Chinese wonders where you have to touch buttons sometimes 2 buttons at the proper time to find what you are looking for. That and they can do so much stuff that I do not use nor what. Here is what I bought. https://www.ebay.com/itm/265853822656?hash=item3de61f66c0:g:rmYAAOSwUU1i~8x~&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoFsv0MU9wR5Nk3Po5srzjWyI4QACPV7Byvn3FlOsm3Uivi5BVKqsDxR7q%2B6dilb3vbU8glN1fDPQ8jo1wzrVHx41zCqtW5aLVEg92lPQ2JTxLE6haLQgIw%2Fl2z3vwKxwaz%2FUKdcWWx8K%2FkzCTQ77SZcX68TbbEtvJAbwTCQxxpGyq1gxR3vQrJ%2FliShaGy01egdar7rixIjBSwCbtduqr34%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4bQ14zgYA

He has a 100% positive feedback and mine looks good and works just fine. I tried it on two scopes, one is one of those cheap Chinese digital scopes and the other an old analog Tenma. Those old analog scopes have a better looking sine wave than a digital scope. I guess, perhaps one of those expensive digital scopes will look almost the same. I tried the square wave function and the square wave looked really good up to 100K. As far as I will ever need a signal generator for. Mouser sells them now for $350, a little cheaper on Amazon. I paid $70 and a reasonable shipping fee. I hope it last for a few more years more than the last one. 

 

The seller most likely got them from a electronic tech school or something similar when they upgrade. 

[Area 51]

14 hours ago, jjptkd said:

 Even though the shop is a bigger space the HIP's (if stock) are 3db higher in sensitivity than the Cornwall you may be surprised how well they'll work together I'd give it a try nothing to lose.

I've been dealing with an unpleasant water heater problem and it has worn me out so I'll be brief. I was unaware of the Heresy sensitivity advantage. I thought I had the Cornwalls too close to the wall in a room that's just too small for them. That may be. Unfortunately, I can't move them out any farther than the 5 inches I have now. Maybe I can reconfigure and pick up a couple inches but that's about it. Well, we have a lot of possible combinations to experiment with so time will tell, I guess. 

The important part: Sweetie straight to the Heresies in the shop is way cool. I have more work to do and I'll be listening to some variety but I think just about anything is going to be fun.

[Area 51]

16 hours ago, henry4841 said:

where it shines, vocals and tone.

Yep!

[Area 51]

19 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Oh well, why not.

That's the spirit!

[Area 51]

19 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Less is more philosophy.

I once read, "The best pre amp is no pre amp". I guess it's safe to assume you would agree with that, Henry. I hope I'll be able to experiment and play with some A-B comparisons so I can contribute from experience.

[mike stehr]

2 hours ago, Area 51 said:

I once read, "The best pre amp is no pre amp".

 

It sort of depends on the amplifier...

I used to use stepped attenuators as a passive volume control, even an TVC (autoformer) type volume control or just straight from a CD player with variable output.

 

I have a 2A3 stereo SET amp that does rather well with a passive type volume control.

But I have lower watt amplifiers, like a RH84 SEP EL84 amp, and some Magnavox mono 6V6 push-pull amplifiers that seem to require a linestage/preamplifier to get a little more grunt and to sound best.

 

The Altec 345A amp I have needs a preamplifier or it'll sound thin with a lack of bass.

I made a Zero Zone clone/copy of the grounded grid linestage.

 

There is more gain and better bass with the GG linestage. The linestage has a neutral sound to my ears.

[henry4841]

6 hours ago, Area 51 said:

Yep!

That is good to hear. You are hearing old tube sound. Really old tube sound. You really do need  a good source to listen with the 6Y6 amp. For it to really shine you need a really well recorded CD and a good CD player. That or if you are like me a well recorded LP and decent cartridge and player. Really good material in is going to sound really good coming out of an amplifier. Not so much good going in is not so good, sometimes awful, coming out. Remember you are amplifying the bad of a not so good recording with an amplifier. Going through those Barbara Mandrell LP's I recently bought some honestly sound like crap. Barely listenable. Poorly recorded. But the ones well recorded sound really, really good. Lovely voice. 

[henry4841]

3 hours ago, mike stehr said:

 

It sort of depends on the amplifier...

I used to use stepped attenuators as a passive volume control, even an TVC (autoformer) type volume control or just straight from a CD player with variable output.

 

I have a 2A3 stereo SET amp that does rather well with a passive type volume control.

But I have lower watt amplifiers, like a RH84 SEP EL84 amp, and some Magnavox mono 6V6 push-pull amplifiers that seem to require a linestage/preamplifier to get a little more grunt and to sound best.

 

The Altec 345A amp I have needs a preamplifier or it'll sound thin with a lack of bass.

I made a Zero Zone clone/copy of the grounded grid linestage.

 

There is more gain and better bass with the GG linestage. The linestage has a neutral sound to my ears.

An active linestage with some gain will give some amplifiers a little more grunt. With the tube amplifiers I have I really have not found the need for it though. I am sure personal preference comes into play. Instead of a passive volume control I like to use an active buffer with no gain. You can build a really good one around an op-amp for practically nothing. I am using the FW B1 buffer by Nelson Pass which uses some J-fets for the buffer. Not sure any better than an op-amp buffer but Nelson likes using them. I recently built a Wayne Colburn, of Pass Labs, linestage which is really good for a gain linestage. At the volume level I listen at and the type of music I enjoy it does not get a lot of use though. But I have it when I want to play with it some. Below is a picture of the op-amp buffer I built a few years ago. Just playing with electronics. 

 

There is no right or wrong way to use electronic gear. The only thing that matters is what you like. Mike's way is as good or better than my way to listen to music. 

 

 

[henry4841]

There is a discussion going on about GR Research on another thread on this website. This is one of those youtube experts. Slick talking salesman trying to convince the unawares that he knows better than the audio engineers at Klipsch that have been doing audio for what now over 70 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdKUc01yL8E

For almost 15 minutes he goes on telling those that will listen how much smarter he is than those college educated electronic engineers at Klipsch. Then at the last of the video he says send him $900, plus shipping I bet, for those heavy coils of wire, and he will send you some impressive looking rolled into a circle copper wire and a few caps with instructions on how you have to build your very own crossover changing the crossover points making your speaker sound better. His sound is better than what the sound guys at Klipsch considers the best sound to them is what he wants you to believe.

 

There was an old US Senator who was once asked by reporters what pornography is. His response was, " I do not know how to describe it but I know it when I see it." I would like to think at my age and with a little knowledge of electronics and having played with audio equipment off and on my entire adult life that I know BS when I hear it. You guys give some thought to what I just said and see if you agree with me. No thanks, I will keep my $900.