TRAINS, watching, recording and discussing.

[artto]

The train ride I'd really like to go on is Copper Canyon, Mexico.

 

Copper Canyon is much larger and longer than our (USA) Grand Canyon.

 

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tom-danleys-mic-recordings/

[artto]

And while we're on the subject of trains, and this Forum is associated with music, there's an interesting orchestral piece of music titled Pacific 231 by Arthur Honneger. Also Steve Reich's "Trains" deserves a listen (voice/spoken word and orchestra)

[Woofers and Tweeters]

The steepest RR that I have ridden is the Cass RR in WV. The drivetrain is made for torque, not speed. 

 

https://mountainrailwv.com/tour/cass-scenic-railroad-bald-knob-trip/

[Woofers and Tweeters]

On 9/4/2022 at 1:44 PM, Coytee said:

 

Any idea where?

 

The 4501 is one you might ride. It used to be painted green and did excursions in this are when I was a kid. I hope to go see it again. 

 

https://www.tvrail.com/equipment/southern-4501/

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

The 4501 is one you might ride. It used to be painted green and did excursions in this are when I was a kid. I hope to go see it again. 

 

https://www.tvrail.com/equipment/southern-4501/

I was lucky enough to ride a double header behind it a few years ago with another one just like it they had rebuilt for NS steam excursions.

 

  HEY copper Ridge is not too far south from you and is the steepest working mainline NS grade. Want to go there and watch trains some day? Trina watching weather is here.

[Islander]

On 9/9/2022 at 5:41 AM, Dave A said:

One of the things I miss about SD-40 engines is that growl they had when working up grade. You could hear them in notch 8 from a long way away. Today these new engines are just not the same and lack the ground pounding noise of effort being exerted. Now mind you I still like watching engines work up grade and here are two spots I wish I could see. 

 

 One that I do plan on seeing this fall is

 

 

Another one I wish I could have seen is Saluda Grade which was the steepest US main line grade in it's day.  Delay in block has good quality videos in general by the way.

 

 

In many big cities, you're never far from a highway or expressway, and the sound is always audible, even if it's barely noticeable.  That faint hum/hiss of tires is a constant background sound.

 

Another constant background sound is that of locomotive engines, especially in cities with heavy trains coming and going all the time.  The commuter trains are short, so they're relatively light, and accelerate to cruising speed fairly quickly, but they don't want to have their passengers clutching the nearest support when the train reaches clear track and opens up, so they don't always use full throttle.

 

The freight trains are different.  They're very heavy, so they take a long pull at full throttle to get up to speed.  Depending on where you are in the city, you can be near or far from a track, but the bass notes carry, just like a fog horn's carefully chosen bass notes carry, so you can usually hear those big engines working hard, even at some distance.  To most city dwellers, that's just part of the background city sounds, like a hiker is used to the sound of the wind in the trees.

 

The difference is that most city residents don't know what that faint sound is.  If you're in a quiet place, like a lakeshore park (Toronto has lots of those on the shore of Lake Ontario), and you listen carefully, you can soon pick it out, and you can usually get the other person to pick it out too, which sometimes surprises them.  "That's what that is?  I can hear it all the time." is a typical response.

 

Locomotive engines don't have mufflers.  They're nearly all turbocharged, and the big turbos, around the size of a big armchair, absorb some of the energy of the engine's exhaust, in the forms of heat, pressure, and noise, in order to compress the intake air, which makes them much more efficient.  This cuts down on noise, plus the fact that the engines are V-12s and V-16s causes the exhaust pulses to blend to some degree.  The whistling of the turbo itself does not carry far, like most high frequency sounds.

 

Here on Vancouver Island, things are different.  There's no rail service, so no train sounds, and no highway with a speed above 90 km/hr (55 mph) until you drive North for about 90 minutes and get North of Nanaimo.  Then the speed limit is 120 km/hr (75 mph), but that area's very rural, so the traffic is usually very light.  There are few people there to hear the faint noise.

[Islander]

1 hour ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

The steepest RR that I have ridden is the Cass RR in WV. The drivetrain is made for torque, not speed. 

 

https://mountainrailwv.com/tour/cass-scenic-railroad-bald-knob-trip/

 

The electric motors on each axle are geared for each application.  There's a smaller gear on the  output shaft of the motor, and a much larger gear on the axle.  The axle is clamped onto the motor, and a large steel or fibreglass gear case covers the gears and holds the heavy grease that's used to lubricate the gears.  The electric motors weigh 2-1/2 tons, while the axle (with wheels and big ring gear) weighs 1-1/2 tons, so a motor and wheel assembly weighs 4 tons.

 

Some locomotives have 4 axles and some have 6 axles.  All axles are driven, but the engines are the same for both types/sizes of locomotive.  The reason some locos have 6 axles and motors is for extra traction.  The motor and ring gear add around 3 tons each, but the trucks (the sub-assemblies that hold the motors and wheels, and swivel to let the loco go around curves) are also much heavier, as is the longer frame, which makes the locomotive longer.  A 6-wheeler is many tons heavier than a 4-wheel locomotive.  With a 3,000 hp engine, a 4-axle puts out 750 hp per axle, while a 6-axle loco puts out 500 hp per axle.  Just like with a car or other vehicle, the important thing is to get the power to the ground, or the track in this case.

 

When I worked for CN Rail in the 1980s, there were two basic speeds:  75 mph for passenger trains and 65 mph for freight trains, so that was two choices of gear sets, which would allow the motors to run at their best rpm at their operating/cruise speed.

 

Now the passenger trains run at 100 mph, so the gear ratios will be different.  If a train is being used on steep grades (very few steep hills around Toronto) or at high altitudes, the gearing would be lower, just as it is with some cars and trucks sold in places like Utah or Montana.

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

 

The electric motors on each axle are geared for each application.  There's a smaller gear on the  output shaft of the motor, and a much larger gear on the axle.  The axle is clamped onto the motor, and a large steel or fibreglass gear case covers the gears and holds the heavy grease that's used to lubricate the gears.  The electric motors weigh 2-1/2 tons, while the axle (with wheels and big ring gear) weighs 1-1/2 tons, so a motor and wheel assembly weighs 4 tons.

 

Some locomotives have 4 axles and some have 6 axles.  All axles are driven, but the engines are the same for both types/sizes of locomotive.  The reason some locos have 6 axles and motors is for extra traction.  The motor and ring gear add around 3 tons each, but the trucks (the sub-assemblies that hold the motors and wheels, and swivel to let the loco go around curves) are also much heavier, as is the longer frame, which makes the locomotive longer.  A 6-wheeler is many tons heavier than a 4-wheel locomotive.  With a 3,000 hp engine, a 4-axle puts out 750 hp per axle, while a 6-axle loco puts out 500 hp per axle.  Just like with a car or other vehicle, the important thing is to get the power to the ground, or the track in this case.

 

When I worked for CN Rail in the 1980s, there were two basic speeds:  75 mph for passenger trains and 65 mph for freight trains, so that was two choices of gear sets, which would allow the motors to run at their best rpm at their operating/cruise speed.

 

Now the passenger trains run at 100 mph, so the gear ratios will be different.  If a train is being used on steep grades (very few steep hills around Toronto) or at high altitudes, the gearing would be lower, just as it is with some cars and trucks sold in places like Utah or Montana.

Cass uses a side axle Shay steam engine.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

18 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Cass uses a side axle Shay steam engine.

Yep, and the pistons are vertical. 

 

 

 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

2 hours ago, Dave A said:

I was lucky enough to ride a double header behind it a few years ago with another one just like it they had rebuilt for NS steam excursions.

 

  HEY copper Ridge is not too far south from you and is the steepest working mainline NS grade. Want to go there and watch trains some day? Trina watching weather is here.

Sounds like a plan. I need to get an app on my phone so I can tune in the radio traffic. 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

I've been to the Horseshoe Curve several times. Altoona has a history worth reading about too.

 

https://www.railroadcity.org/curve.html

 

[Islander]

9 hours ago, Dave A said:

Cass uses a side axle Shay steam engine.

 

The way some steam engines get different "gearing" is to use different drive wheels.  The pivot on the wheel where the crank bar (I don't know its actual name.  I mean the bar that attaches to the drive wheel and drives it.) attaches is further from the centre of the wheel.  This gives the wheel a better mechanical advantage, increasing the pulling power, or tractive effort available, using the railway term.  Of course, nothing mechanical is free, so the increased torque comes at the expense of speed.  The "Mountain Type" locos have great pulling power, but their top speeds are lower as a result.

[Islander]

9 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Yep, and the pistons are vertical. 

 

 

 

 

Well, that's different.  Those vertical pistons make for a really different design.  Seeing all the exposed gears makes me wonder about how they're kept lubricated, since the grease would tend to be thrown off fairly quickly.  Even so, it must have been successful, or it wouldn't still be running.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

 

Well, that's different.  Those vertical pistons make for a really different design.  Seeing all the exposed gears makes me wonder about how they're kept lubricated, since the grease would tend to be thrown off fairly quickly.  Even so, it must have been successful, or it wouldn't still be running.

The miter gears and vertical cylinders are cool. Add to it that the drive shafts have U joints and lengthen and shorten for curves. 

 

Also, coming off of the mountain, there is a brake person on every car to constantly adjust each car's brakes, otherwise come will skid and others not be braking enough. 

[Islander]

1 hour ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

The miter gears and vertical cylinders are cool. Add to it that the drive shafts have U joints and lengthen and shorten for curves. 

 

Also, coming off of the mountain, there is a brake person on every car to constantly adjust each car's brakes, otherwise come will skid and others not be braking enough. 

 

Yes, railways were pretty dangerous before Westinghouse invented air brakes for them.  However, trains still take an awfully long time to stop, because the brakes are applied on each car sequentially.  The engineer applies the train brake, which causes the pressure in the brake pipe (the hose running between cars, all the way to the last car) to reduce.  The brakes apply in the first car, which operates a relay valve, which lowers the brake pipe pressure behind it, and the second car’s brakes go on, and so on, until eventually every car has its brakes applied.

 

If it only takes a few seconds for the brakes on a car to apply its brakes and then “pass on the signal” to the next car, it could take a minute or more before every car finally has its brakes applied, resulting in a very long stopping distance.  

 

The locomotive has its own brakes, which apply almost instantly, but the locomotive alone can’t stop the train in any reasonable distance, because the weight of all the cars will push it.  If the loco is in a curve, it could get pushed off the track.  It’s more stable if the loco is pulling a bit, so the locomotive brake is applied lightly when slowing or stopping a train.  Being the engineer in charge of a train looks simple, but it’s a big responsibility, which is why few road engineers are under fifty years of age.  First, they serve their time moving units around the yard and in and out of the shops, gaining lots of experience, before they’re entrusted with the control of a train.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

 

Yes, railways were pretty dangerous before Westinghouse invented air brakes for them.  However, trains still take an awfully long time to stop, because the brakes are applied on each car sequentially.  The engineer applies the train brake, which causes the pressure in the brake pipe (the hose running between cars, all the way to the last car) to reduce.  The brakes apply in the first car, which operates a relay valve, which lowers the brake pipe pressure behind it, and the second car’s brakes go on, and so on, until eventually every car has its brakes applied.

 

If it only takes a few seconds for the brakes on a car to apply its brakes and then “pass on the signal” to the next car, it could take a minute or more before every car finally has its brakes applied, resulting in a very long stopping distance.  

 

The locomotive has its own brakes, which apply almost instantly, but the locomotive alone can’t stop the train in any reasonable distance, because the weight of all the cars will push it.  If the loco is in a curve, it could get pushed off the track.  It’s more stable if the loco is pulling a bit, so the locomotive brake is applied lightly when slowing or stopping a train.  Being the engineer in charge of a train looks simple, but it’s a big responsibility, which is why few road engineers are under fifty years of age.  First, they serve their time moving units around the yard and in and out of the shops, gaining lots of experience, before they’re entrusted with the control of a train.

The cars all have air brakes that are applied from the engine. They still have to constantly trim the pressure for each car, every run amd on different grades due to things such as how many people are on each car, different friction, heat, etc. Call it human ABS. 

 

 

[Dave A]

2 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

The cars all have air brakes that are applied from the engine. They still have to constantly trim the pressure for each car, every run amd on different grades due to things such as how many people are on each car, different friction, heat, etc. Call it human ABS. 

 

 

I can see why.

"Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia routinely operates up approx. 10 per cent grades - on switchbacks, too - as traction-only - with Shays and other geared lokies. "

[Islander]

3 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

The cars all have air brakes that are applied from the engine. They still have to constantly trim the pressure for each car, every run amd on different grades due to things such as how many people are on each car, different friction, heat, etc. Call it human ABS. 

 

 

 

That’s different.  Maybe the fact that those passenger cars are lighter than the typical all-weather passenger cars is a factor.  I’ve never seen a setup where anyone other than the engineer had control over the brakes.

 

If that were a normal scheduled passenger service, with the usual stainless steel cars, with heating and maybe A/C, plus food service from a kitchen car, and every worker earning union wages, the company would be doing their best to eliminate every “extra” job they could, since it would cut into their profits.  As for safety, railways are not like airlines.  Railways operate on the ragged edge between safe and profitable, so the occasional breakdown is tolerated.

 

In 1985, I took the train from Toronto to Winnipeg and back by Via Rail, a distance of 2,032 km (1263 miles) each way.  Via is CN’s passenger service.   On the return trip, we were many hours late, but that was treated as routine.  “Delays R Us” seemed to be their motto.

 

Last year, a friend of mine took a long train ride in central Canada on Via.  The train ran at 100 mph (161 km/hr), and there were very few delays.  Maybe things have improved in the last 4 decades.  It was long overdue.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

2 hours ago, Dave A said:

I can see why.

"Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia routinely operates up approx. 10 per cent grades - on switchbacks, too - as traction-only - with Shays and other geared lokies. "

I will have some pictures from when I was there. They had a Climax engine in the shop in 2013.

 

I grew up around and later used the McCabe lathe that's in the Cass shop now. Here is a little history on that:

 

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/jj-mccabe-large-lathe.112357/

 

[dirtmudd]