Subwoofer with Lascala / Cornwall's Passive

[mrparisi]

I have Lascala's from 1976 and Cornwall 2's in different settings. I built two really nice subwoofer. One with a highly rated 15" driver and one with a 12" driver.   When there is lots of bass in the music they comes alive but on my Anthem avm50 I have to boost the db's on the subwoofer controls. While both subwoofers are amazing and musical the output is not always what I want.  I'm using a Parasound HCA-1200 in bridgemode and a st-140 BK monoblock for the other sub.  The problem is Klipsch speakers sensitivity which is over 100db while both sub drivers are around 85-86db. I just don't have enough juice to drive them.  I also have a Rel Strata 3 which I use in another system which sounds more thumpy then musical. With the active subwoofer I have the option of controlling the output with the onboard amp which puts out more volume then my passive setups.  My options are:

 

1. Replace both drivers with higher sensitivity drivers.  

2. Get amps with more power but not sure what that would cost.  I would need 400watts.  D power would be fine. 

3. Keep what I have now and buy a pair of hsu subwoofers for both systems.  And yes I do like my music without a sub too but the subwoofer for me adds warms up the musical presentation and just adds what I feel I need for enjoyment.  We are all different. Love to hear some opinions or suggestions.  

Edited March 11, 2023 by mrparisi

[wuzzzer]

I think the new Klipsch RP-1600 subwoofer(s) would work great for you.

[roninklipsch]

Integrating a factory sub which has a ton of engineering behind it is still tricky. So if you built these and are trying to work out power, placement etc. over different genres that could be one heck of a task.  My advice is buy a sub that is proven and is known to work well perhaps with Klipsch.  It will save you time and maybe money if you are considering amps, drivers etc.

 

I have Corns and use two REL T9xs subs.  They connect on high level output (speaker terminals) but do not create any load.  A pretty unique bit on engineering.  They are not really expensive if you look at the product line..  The  Reference are but you could probably get by with one of any good sub. RELs are quick and musical.  I have never had a Klipsch sub, but reviews are good.

 

And I guess my point is, dialing in a sub is a lot of tweaking even if it's a REL, Klipsch etc. and takes a lot of experimenting. Depending upon the genre and recording quality, you may still get differing results....  Best of luck

[Peter P.]

The problem could be whatever design you used when you built your passive subs. Your calculations could be way off.

 

I agree with the suggestion to buy pre-built subs and since Klipsch makes brutally efficient speakers, you obviously need subs that can keep up.

 

Wuzzzer's suggestion of the new Klipsch subs is a good one.

 

Using amp power to increase your subs' output is expensive and gains will be marginal.

 

You could run two subs on each system like roninklipsch above which may be necessary with your efficient speakers. Expensive, too.

If you can't find a sub with speaker level inputs for your needs, you could use a "Y" cable to split the input signal to each sub. The input

impedance is high so driving two subs with one line level output shouldn't be a problem.

[mrparisi]

2 hours ago, roninklipsch said:

Integrating a factory sub which has a ton of engineering behind it is still tricky. So if you built these and are trying to work out power, placement etc. over different genres that could be one heck of a task.  My advice is buy a sub that is proven and is known to work well perhaps with Klipsch.  It will save you time and maybe money if you are considering amps, drivers etc.

 

I have Corns and use two REL T9xs subs.  They connect on high level output (speaker terminals) but do not create any load.  A pretty unique bit on engineering.  They are not really expensive if you look at the product line..  The  Reference are but you could probably get by with one of any good sub. RELs are quick and musical.  I have never had a Klipsch sub, but reviews are good.

 

And I guess my point is, dialing in a sub is a lot of tweaking even if it's a REL, Klipsch etc. and takes a lot of experimenting. Depending upon the genre and recording quality, you may still get differing results....  Best of luck

Are you happy with the bass? Do you find yourself adjusting output for each track you play? My Rek Strata 3 is hooked up the same way. Is there anyway to control the output with a remote? 

[roninklipsch]

I guess there are subs with a remote.  Velodyne for example.  

 

I am very happy with the bass. Bass output in general is room dependant to a degree and you need to explore crossover and volume settings to integrate well with your speakers. 

 

All depends on what you would like your end result to be.  

 

You mentioned a remote?  Do you want to crank it a bit so you hear it noticeably on every song? If so then that is somewhat opposite of most systems.  For example, I want the subs to dissappear.  The added base simply melds itself into the main speakers.

 

I start my set up with Thanks To You by Boz Scaggs.  If that sounds perfect than I'm going the right direction.  But does rock have less thump than hip hop.  Yep.   That's just the way is was recorded....

[Peter P.]

A way to gain free subwoofer output is to place your sub(s) in corners. Depending on your subwoofer's current location

you may be able to gain up to 6dB of output.

[OO1]

21 hours ago, mrparisi said:

 

3. Keep what I have now and buy a pair of hsu subwoofers for both systems.  

what's your budget ?   klipsch was running promos on  12 inch powered subs at 300$ a piece and they  sold like hotcakes   https://www.klipsch.com/subwoofers 

[mrparisi]

13 hours ago, roninklipsch said:

I guess there are subs with a remote.  Velodyne for example.  

 

I am very happy with the bass. Bass output in general is room dependant to a degree and you need to explore crossover and volume settings to integrate well with your speakers. 

 

All depends on what you would like your end result to be.  

 

You mentioned a remote?  Do you want to crank it a bit so you hear it noticeably on every song? If so then that is somewhat opposite of most systems.  For example, I want the subs to dissappear.  The added base simply melds itself into the main speakers.

 

I start my set up with Thanks To You by Boz Scaggs.  If that sounds perfect than I'm going the right direction.  But does rock have less thump than hip hop.  Yep.   That's just the way is was recorded....

I like the subwoofer to blend but I do want the lower octaves to be present.  I want a remote since some tracks have too much or bloated bass while older tracks are thin on bass.  I have a bass knob now in my car stereo setup.  I'm constantly adjusting it for each track.  I can adjust the sub db's with more anthem processor but it's really hard to see with the small led display on the unit and also sitting back 15ft doesn't help the situation.  Maybe I just need a good pair of binoculars, lol. 

[mrparisi]

20 hours ago, wuzzzer said:

I think the new Klipsch RP-1600 subwoofer(s) would work great for you.

I'm sure the newer Klipsch subwoofers are good but I had one about 10 years ago and all it did was dance around the floor and vibrate.  It wasn't for me but that was a long time ago. 

[mrparisi]

I found a ADCOM GFA-555 that put out 600 watts in mono bridge mode into 8ohms.  It's only 600 - 700 used which is not too bad.  I'm going to give this a try.  My subs are like furniture so hate to get rid of them. They play deep and I used bass box when designing them.  My only downfall was not choosing more efficient drivers but my subs are musical and can slam hard and shake the house when playing a movie like Star Wars. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by mrparisi

[jjptkd]

8 hours ago, mrparisi said:

I found a ADCOM GFA-555 that put out 600 watts in mono bridge mode into 8ohms.  It's only 600 - 700 used which is not too bad.  I'm going to give this a try.  My subs are like furniture so hate to get rid of them. They play deep and I used bass box when designing them.  My only downfall was not choosing more efficient drivers but my subs are musical and can slam hard and shake the house when playing a movie like Star Wars. 

 

 Nice job on the subs they look great! Those adcoms are old and not the best option for subs in my opinion look at the pro amps with more power and features for less money new. Add a mini-DSP HD for EQ options or buy an amp with it built in so you can really fine tune things if you want.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NX3000--behringer-nx3000-power-amplifier

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLS1502--crown-xls-1502-power-amplifier

[mrparisi]

On 3/10/2023 at 6:59 AM, Peter P. said:

The problem could be whatever design you used when you built your passive subs. Your calculations could be way off.

 

I agree with the suggestion to buy pre-built subs and since Klipsch makes brutally efficient speakers, you obviously need subs that can keep up.

 

Wuzzzer's suggestion of the new Klipsch subs is a good one.

 

Using amp power to increase your subs' output is expensive and gains will be marginal.

 

You could run two subs on each system like roninklipsch above which may be necessary with your efficient speakers. Expensive, too.

If you can't find a sub with speaker level inputs for your needs, you could use a "Y" cable to split the input signal to each sub. The input

impedance is high so driving two subs with one line level output shouldn't 

Why do you say that gains will be marginal. If my sub amp is putting out 200w and the adcom put out 600w this should suffice. I'll know soon enough. 

[Tom05]

For max output , place both subwoofers in the same corner, this will give you a coupling effect as well as the advantage of the 1/8th space (corner loading ). As the great audio  writer and subwoofer guru Tom Nousain once said , (sorry I don’t have the exact quote) Two subwoofers in the same corner will outperform 4 in the round . This is valuable information when trying to keep up with Lascala output.

[Tom05]

Also , with your less than optimal subwoofer capacity , run your speaker’s full range , let them play! (Maybe you are) Augment the bass with your subs , don’t high pass your big Klipsch . This way , you will lose nothing that the big Klipsch can provide , and you will gain everything that your subs can contribute. With this setup,when your subs exhaust their capacity , it will be far less noticeable , and with really good subwoofers maybe not noticeable at all, especially with music.🤓

[Peter P.]

4 hours ago, mrparisi said:

Why do you say that gains will be marginal. If my sub amp is putting out 200w and the adcom put out 600w this should suffice. I'll know soon enough. 

Because the cost difference between a 200W and a 600W amp will be substantial, and you'll only gain 6dB of output which in my opinion isn't significant enough to justify the cost. I'm inclined to think you're looking for more than 6dB of output increase.

[mrparisi]

10 hours ago, jjptkd said:

 

 Nice job on the subs they look great! Those adcoms are old and not the best option for subs in my opinion look at the pro amps with more power and features for less money new. Add a mini-DSP HD for EQ options or buy an amp with it built in so you can really fine tune things if you want.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NX3000--behringer-nx3000-power-amplifier

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLS1502--crown-xls-1502-power-amplifier

 

7 hours ago, Tom05 said:

For max output , place both subwoofers in the same corner, this will give you a coupling effect as well as the advantage of the 1/8th space (corner loading ). As the great audio  writer and subwoofer guru Tom Nousain once said , (sorry I don’t have the exact quote) Two subwoofers in the same corner will outperform 4 in the round . This is valuable information when trying to keep up with Lascala output.

I'm married. I can't get too crazy. Lol

[mrparisi]

The D powered amps look nice and have a remote. I mostly stream off my phone and use an app for dsp. I pulled the trigger on the Adcom. I'll report back on any gains. 

[mrparisi]

11 hours ago, Tom05 said:

Also , with your less than optimal subwoofer capacity , run your speaker’s full range , let them play! (Maybe you are) Augment the bass with your subs , don’t high pass your big Klipsch . This way , you will lose nothing that the big Klipsch can provide , and you will gain everything that your subs can contribute. With this setup,when your subs exhaust their capacity , it will be far less noticeable , and with really good subwoofers maybe not noticeable at all, especially with music.🤓

Yes. I always run my speakers full range (large). The Lascala surprised me with its beautiful bass. Very punch and tight. The sub fills in the lower notes. I turned down by 3db which helped with the sub become more  noticeable.

[Tom05]

This setup keeps up with a Lascala / Khorn home  theater. But the  simple and direct  solution is  to use horn subwoofers ,  this will ensure that the superior bass impact  that the Klipsch provides , is  preserved. Having said this ,  two horn subs would  likely be required . Listening at high SPL while  enjoying great special effects requires  relatively high subwoofer output to fully  complement the Lascala / Khorn . I believe that different solutions can certainly work in solving this problem , but quality and high output are paramount 🤓