lorcoll Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I'm anxious to know how it sounds with 311 horn and 290 driver. Q-Man, let us know if you would try this scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 Al, I'm havn't been ignoring your kind offer, I had to work Sat. and I spent most of the day Sun. with JW's networks. I have to decline, because these new networks turned out to be a great success. Sun. I did some A/B comparisons with the already nice sounding AA that I have been using while JW was working on this new design. I just added a 3uF mid. cap to make the 290 crossover at 400Hz. I thought that this was as good as it gets, so I was pleasently supprised. I first measured the warble test tones on the 290/311/JBL/ Klipschorn with the hybrid AA network. Leaving the volume the same I then put in JW's new network which was spefically designed for these drivers and horns. The 290 measured about the same with both networks, but the JBL tweeter was much flatter. There wasn't any more 5000 to 6000Hz peaks and it also has about another 3db output above 10kHz. Still listening to mono with my A/B switching capabilities I put in some music CDs and compared this new network with the AA in the other Klipschorn. I didn't expect to hear any difference in the midrange since the 290 measured the same with both networks. I was totally shocked at what I was hearing. I ran to get my son and told him to bring in some of his CDs, because he had to hear this. The 290/311 combo was even more open sounding. It was again cleaner, like another layer of noise had disappeared or another pillow taken out of the mouth of the horn. I was asking myself, "How can this be?" I already heard this kind of improvement when I went from the stock Klipschorn to this mod. How can I be hearing this kind of improvement all over again? I began to think that this was too good to be true so I asked some more ears to come into the room. They too thought it was a very obvious improvement. I then put another new network in the other Klipschorn. I was now worried that I could have been hearing a difference in the room corners and not the speakers themselves. I told my son that if the speakers now sound the same then we have a winner. If they still sound different then it's the room. Sweat was pouring off my brow while I switched the networks, but I'll spare you the details. The speakers did indead now sound idenitical! What a releaf. It must be those darn notch filters and resistors that JW put in the network to cancel out the noise that he was measuring. I really can't discribe this in words what I think of this mod now, because I told you before that it already was a great improvement over the stock Klipschorn. This new network takes it yet to another level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Q-Man, This is actually good news to me. If you did a comparison between my extreme-slope netwrok and a correctly designed conventional network that you know sounds good, it would be a true acid test for the extreme-slope concept. After all, now is the time to experiment. I really believe you will hear another order of improvement becasue everything will then be optimized. No more compromises! It will take me a good while to deliver on the offer though. I am swamped with orders for the type "A" network and I have promised two sets of ES400s for evaluation in "stock" Khorns. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Al, "and I have promised two sets of ES400s for evaluation in "stock" Khorns. " Where are you going to cross between the squawker and the tweeter? The ES on a K55 might be better done a little lower then 6kHz since that driver has problems getting up there and with an ES on the tweeter there wouldn't be hardly any overlap helping to fill in that area. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Shawn, The preliminary design for ES6000 looks like it will fall about 5800 Hz. Moving it even lower may be a good idea, but for now I want it near to the normal crossover frequency for comparison purposes. I think that some K77 don't have good response down low, so I don't want to overdo it! Q-Man, BTW, where are you crossing the 311 horn to the tweeter? Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Al, "Moving it even lower may be a good idea, but for now I want it near to the normal crossover frequency for comparison purposes. I think that some K77 don't have good response down low, so I don't want to overdo it!" I think this is going to depend on the squawker driver used. A K55V (spring clip) starts dropping off around 4200 so if the tweeter is sharply cut off at 5800 there is going to be more of a hole there then normal as the tweeter would normally help fill in that region a little. It wouldn't be as bad with the K55M since it does better to 6k. If the K77 won't let you lower the crossover point much that is going to compound the problem. Of course a better squawker and/or tweeter would make things easier. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Shawn, My experience doesn't support what you found about the K55s at all. I referbished 6 later K55V (solder connections). All of them went slightly higher then 6 KHz. The two early K55V (spring connections) that came with my belles also whent beyond 6KHz. I have only had two K55Ms here to evaluate and both of them just bearly made it to 6000. So, from what I have seen, 5800 should do nicely (I hope!). Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Al, I crossover to the tweeter at 6kHz like Klipsch, because the 290 is good to 7kHz and I wanted to use as much of the 290 as I could. That is the reason that I was surprised that John got rid of the 3db peak at 5 to 6kHz like all the Klipsch networks have. John crosses over to his tweeter at 4kHz, because he has to, do to the fact that his JBL mid. drivers don't go as high. The JBL tweeter is rated to go that low, and there isn't any concern about over driving it. The JBL-2404H tweeter is rated to handle 40 watts compared to the 4 or 5 watts of the Klipsch K-77 tweeter. BTW the 290 can handle 100 to 120 watts compared to the 30 or 40 watts of the K-55. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Q-man, Ok, but I think maybe I asked the wrong question. What I need to know is if the tweeter / squawker network components are usable seperately. That is, could you use a 300 Hz crossover on a seperate board along with the 6 Khz part of John's network? I do have an extreme slope network planed for 5800 Hz. Would you need that too? All this is assuming your interested in persuing this in the first place! AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 DFM, Brought this back up for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Q, did you see this post by John Warren on the Altec site? http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/Page_5.html JIm N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted June 24, 2004 Author Share Posted June 24, 2004 I didn't see it yet, but I did send him some pictures of my stuff to use on the website that he is creating. He is putting together a web site and we have been talking about things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale W Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Q-man : Did you get any of those 311's on e-bay i e-mailed you about ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted June 25, 2004 Author Share Posted June 25, 2004 NO. I bid $330.00 for a single horn and it went over $400.00. I got busy and didn't bid on the other three. I don't know what they sold for. Then the last two pairs that I watched on ebay sold for over $900.00, like I told you. When I'm ready to convert my rear speakers I just may have to pay that mush now. Maybe I was lucky to get two pairs for around $600.00 a pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Q-Man: I've been very interested in reading your progress on this project. I've been considering trying this same mod. I'm pleased with the way my Khorns sound now (stock), but who knows if I would like this better. I realize that in audio, many things are subjective and subject to personal taste, but I might want to try this. Just gotta find all the components... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Did not mean to offend SO SOR Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Did not mean to offend. SO SORRY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 john / Q, seems hard to find 311 and 290 drivers, I checked around on the internet (since I live in central america my only source is what I can find on the internet)...I have been looking for alternatives and wondered if you guys checked out the JBL 2485J driver with the JBL 2366A horn? or the JBL 2490H driver with 2393 horn (both go from 300hz up to 4khz with appropriate efficiency)...the horns are bigger than the 311 but perhaps would be easier to find...how about JBL drivers with the 311 horn? thoughts? advice about where to find 311/290? In the case of the JBL horns (32" square or 42" square) I thought about leaving the k-horn bass bins in the corners and making a midrange/tweeter array that sits on the floor (on stands) inboard of the bass bins...love to hear feedback from you guys. specs for the 2393 and 2366A horn, 2485J and 2490H drivers can be found at http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted July 2, 2004 Author Share Posted July 2, 2004 I'll post a new picture of the Altec/JBL mod since the ones in this topic are old prototypes. This picture should show the left, right, and center channel Klipschorn bass horns with the 311-90 horns, 290 driver and JBL 2404H tweeter. I got my two pairs of 311-90 horns from ebay. They arn't cheap. I've been looking for another pair for a pair of rear Klipschorns. They have been selling for around $900.00 a pair. I don't know who is using them and what they are being used for and the reason why these horns are in such demand, except that they sound real nice. I have six 290 drivers. I got two from Jammin Jersey and four from ebay. Then I bought new diaphragms from Bill at Great Plains Audio. He was once going to start making the 290, but never went through with his plans to do so. He does repair them. I should give him another call and see what he is up to now. Those large JBL horns that you mentioned should do the trick, if you have the room for them. I'll let you in on a little secret, but after I say this I'm not going to talk about it untill I have something to report. I'm going to be experimenting again with the aid of John. I will be trying various 2" drivers and horns. This time I will be using drivers and horns that are currently in production. The goal is to design a Modified Klipschorn top that sounds better then the stock Klipschorn. It would be really nice if it can come close to the sound of my mod. On a scale of one to ten, if I make the Klipschorn a one and my mod a ten, my goal is to at least produce a seven. On the other hand, I don't think many on this Forum would be interested in buying an upgraded top for their Klipschorns. Do any of you think that there would be a market for such an upgrade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 I do think some board members would be interested, it probably comes down to a price issue. if the modded speakers sound as good as I imagine they do (I only have your, and john's, descriptions of the improvements in sound, but they sound great) I imagine that some would pay $1.5-2k for the mod...some maybe $3-4k...depends on the individual's wallet...note: if the modern equipment based mod is not cheaper than the vintage mod then, I suppose, it will be less attractive, especially if the sound does not equal your vintage modded k-horns...please keep us informed of progress on the project. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Q-Man, Have you looked at the Community drivers - M200 - with the 2 inch throat? I know someone who uses them, and djk has mentioned how good they are and are a new production unit. I believe they can be had for around $235 each. I think this will get you to their pages" http://www.loudspeakers.net/main/index.php?option=articles&task=viewarticle&sid=25 Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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