mike stehr Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 ---------------- On 2/27/2003 2:56:07 PM HDBRbuilder wrote: Mike, I didn't single anybody (or bodies) out...I just stated an observation and an opinion. There are those on both sides of this "issue" who need to pay more attention to their blanket statements and how they react to similar posts, agreed? Agreed. I should have never thought you were pointing someone out. I will note, though, that NEVER have any of the members ever seen me enter any comments into a thread about a member's pride in a recent aquisition of an item and start into a commentary on how much better-off the individual would have been to have taken his/her already limited funds, double them, and buy a different item...tube OR S/S!! Know what I mean? Yup! I read your posts. If/when a member asks for a recommendation for a particular component, and I have a recommendation to give, I post the recommendation. And, if the individual decides to follow my recommendation, then I am naturally curious as to their opinion of its total cost, condition, and performance when they get it. I also will do my best to provide them with anything I know of that pertains to that particular item, such as links to owner manuals and technical manuals, hints for cleaning, etc...if I have any info to offer-up in the situation! That is my style of doing things. To each his own! I understand and respect that. You are one of the more helpful members on the Forum. Your the only guy I know of that can look at a pair of Klipsch speakers from a auction pic, or a pic of one's personal pair of Klipsch and know the whole story. My apologies for the dumb remarks. Yeesh! I'll think I mind my own business! ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Mike...HELL NO! Don't stop posting your comments!...That is not what I meant at all! You make some very good commentary! I just want all involved to rethink the place and manner in which they post their comments! That's all! As for your praise of me...there are a helluva lot more folks besides me who can look at a pic of Klipsch speakers and go on and on about them...LOL! Many do! I just had the dubious benefit of having been involved in their manufacture on a daily basis for 7+ years! LOL! I do my best to tell folks what they need/want to know...but I surely am not any kind of expert on them! I learn more about them from other members every damned day! I was just a woodworker...not an engineer...and the electronics side of the house as per the guts is not my forte! But...I can build the hell out of them if I need/want to! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 "But drawing other conclusions without listening experience seem problematic" ***************************** I guess this means nobody can say really say anything about any piece of equipment unless they've heard it themselves, with their own ears, right? In case somebody didn't see one of my above threads, I already admitted to not phrasing my comment correctly. I meant to say that it was the BEST (yes, a "sweeping" comment there Mobile-lol) combination for the money. I have made other statements to this effect in many other threads. I don't think I ever intentionally said the H/K and Heresy combo was the best REGARDLESS of price since that's a ridiculous thing to say. Again, I'm waiting for someone to prove me wrong that it's NOT the best bang-for-your-buck combo around, broken and repairable equipment (and that $12 mc250 & $100 Khorn example) not withstanding. As for Mike, you did say you beat my example, and then you proceeded to say you did it with tubes and then listed the equipment. I just a) don't think the equipment is applicable and don't believe it could be better sounding. Here's a sweeping statement - Find another receiver or amp/pre-amp/tuner and another set of speakers that will deliver more volume and sound better then the HK430/Heresy Combo because I think it's the BEST two-channel setup ***for the money***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Okay, My stereo sounds worse than yours. There! You feel better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Christ, Andy. READ...please READ my point. Again, you miss the point here. Why is this so hard in this forum? I said, making GENERALIZATIONS about the worth of the amp as "BEST" status WITHOUT having heard any options to compared it to. Can you see the distinction? See the connotations? You example is completely different. See the line below. Heresy2" "Like I said before, a late 70s H/K 430 and a late 70s pair of Heresys have to be the best bang-for-your-buck AND the best sounding 2 channel setup you can get, in my opinion." Again, this is what I was referring to. Of course, he later admitted he mistyped ,but this is what I was responding to. Dont worry, you'll misread something yet again and I'll have to respond with another five paragraphs showing the distinction. At times, this place is litearlly like beating your head against a wall. And I OWE Heresy an apology as the real post that bothered me was yours as you misread the connotations. In my view, you take people that have only heard run of the mill Circuit City and AV gear and plop down something for an improvement. Suddenly, this amp takes on epic proportions and instead of being a damn fine amp for the money, is in a status that is questionable. Most of the comments about this amp refer to "the most sound" of "kicking butt" or "big bass" with little really making the distinction betweeh the subtle differences that start to be found in the gear that I am talking about. To me, this sonic jump comes with the tube integrateds. I have to this day, not heard a single solid state receiver duplicate these sonics. I do want to hear the 430 (I heard one of the big brothers of the twin power series years ago but it was too long ago in a mediocre setup). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Mobile you don't owe me anything dude...LOL....there's nothing in my opinon to apologize for! I'll reiterate for the 3rd (?!) time that I didn't phrase my original comment correctly, the one that you again quoted above. Yeah, the way it reads does give you something to say like "Hey! What are talking about....BEST sounding???" BUT, like I said before, I've made the CORRECT comment (best sounding combo FOR the money) on many other posts. So, after having read my other posts, you should know what I mean although the way I phrased it the other day did call for somebody to perk up and say "Whaaaat?!" But, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse trying to explain this very thing again when there's no need so I'm just gonna let it die it's rightful death. I agree with Andy though: the gauntlet is thrown and I'm waiting for someone to say "Hey, HERE'S a great sounding receiver and set of non-heresy speakers that you can buy for less then the setup you've been talking about and it not only plays louder but much much cleaner." Remember...I'm Mister Cheapo....I *live* for that kinda stuff! I *want* somebody to prove me wrong! I just don't think it's gonna happen! As for you trying out a HK430, Mobile, it would cost you almost as much to have a unit shipped to you and then returned to it's owner as it would be to snare one at a good price on Ebay so it's probably better to just buy one if you've got the extra change around. Hell, if you don't like it or think it's worth the price you paid, you can always resell it on Ebay. But I must say that I haven't heard any complaints from anybody on this forum who's purchased one so unless you're the exception, you'll probably find it's a definitely worth the price. I guess some of my comments tend to ignite a rage in you like a red cape does to a bull and for that I'm sorry but hey man, I'll still post them cause this board's a great place to get info & opinions so I guess I'll just try to avoid the color red. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Oh yeah...I missed a point I wanted to make, sorry. Anyway, it's about the quotes you said you hear about the 430 Mobile, about it being a bass monster, bassy, etc... I know you would rather see comments that are, well, probably more intellectual and more technical, but here's a thought: Most audiophiles who would give you descriptions and comments in the vernacular you want wouldn't be caught dead shopping for $30 30-year-old receivers. They're all interested in either restoring tube amps or buying top-of-the-line SS equipment that's worth more then my 18 year old Volvo. Either way, those "sophisticated" types don't seem to be bargain hunters shopping for old, cheap albeit GOOD equipment. Guys like me buy that kinda stuff. And I can't speak for anyone else but when something sounds good to me, I tend to want to talk about it in emotional terms, not overly scientific, PhD-level technospeak. Here's an example - "That H/K 430 is a bass MONSTER! It gives me bass I never thought my Heresy IIs even HAD!" or "It totally changes the sound coming out of my Heresys - now I have glass-cracking highs and super-tight, but not boomy bass." Those kinda comments are what I usually give and for the "layperson" like myself, they're easy to understand and even the "sophisticated" audiophiles should grin when they read it because they should understand what I mean although they can explain it in better, technically-accurate terms. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 WHEN WILL THE BICKERING CEASE?! How About Now! Why must we feel that we have to prove ourselves at every opportunity? Let's just leave well enough alone. Let's just pick our fights, ones that matter in the long run. Let's work to agree to disagree. Let's realize that there are more things in life than $/$$ and Tube/SS and LP/CD. -justin, out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Kelly, Oh yes...I get your point LOUD and CLEAR! LOL! Somebody (not me, BTW) makes a sweeping generalizatiion that the H/K 430/Heresy combo "is the best 2-channel" system there is! And you take it upon yourself to CORRECTLY point out that such a sweeping generalization does not take into acccount the many other combinations of equipment out there...which is true! Then you decide to turn the thread into a hopeful chance to do a COMPARISON between the H/K 430 and numerous other amps you are currently playing around with...which was NOT the intent of the thread to begin with...correct? But that is no big deal! Then you later further continue in that direction by talking about tubes vs. S/S...correct? By that time the intent of the original poster has been side-tracked onto another rail, hasn't it? But, when one is so quick to point out the error of others who are making sweeping generalizations, one should be careful not to make sweeping generalizations, himself, agreed? Case in point: Your very last thread!!! Not only do you make a foolish sweeping generalization, but you also make a foolish sweeping assumption, and you include that in ONE sentence that is a direct attack upon me and your misguided opinion of my motive for even recommending the H/K 430 to anybody to begin with...just down the page from where I clearly and concisely reiterated my reasons for my ever recommending ANYTHING to begin with!!! GEEZ, man! Re-read what you just wrote!!: "In my view, you take people that have only heard run of the mill Circuit City and AV gear and plop down something for an improvement." Well, let's see now...first of all...how the hell do you know what the hell kind of equipment anybody who has purchased, or shown interest IN purchasing, an H/K 430 has been exposed to? Pretty sweeping comment there! It is also a pretty much pompous opinion! Justin was the first to buy one on my recommendation. Does he fit this category? What about Rick Tate? Do you have any idea at all what his listening experiences have been? Jim Cornell has a Conrad...does your statement apply to him, too? What about Fini...is he without listening experiences, too? Do you REALLY believe that is what my intent is when I make the recommendation for an H/K 430? "Most of the comments about this amp refer to 'the most sound' of(sp) 'kicking butt' or 'big bass' with little really making the distinction between he subtle differences that start to be found in the gear that I am talking about. To me, this sonic jump comes from the tube integrateds. I have to this day, not heard a single solid state receiver duplicate these sonics." Kelly...that is the WHOLE DAMNED POINT, man! When people post their happiness with a purchase of an H/K or anything else, they just don't give a damn about you (or anybody else!) jumping in with your "subtle differences"..."found in the gear that" you "are talking about" or your opinion that "this sonic jump comes with the tube integrateds" or that you "have to this day, not heard a single solid state receiver duplicate those sonics"!!!...All these posters are attempting to do is tell fellow forum members that they like what they just bought!!!! They may not use terms like "midrange bloom" when writing of their like of their new purchase, but who the hell cares, anyway? They are happy...and want the forum members to know it!! So...LET THEM BE HAPPY, for Chrissakes!!! If/when they want to hear your opinion, I am sure they will ask! You are extremely knowledgeable, and your experience and opinions are highly valued by many of the forum members, including myself...BUT there is a time and place in which your opinions are sought out, and a time and place where a poster really doesn't care to watch you jump in and "burst their bubble of happiness"...whether that is your intent in your written comments or not! If you want to congratulate a person, then do it, ask questions about the piece of equipment. Ask them to give a more detailed description of their impression of it. Be happy for THEIR happiness. Ask and learn! There is no need to make them feel their new purchase doesn't meet your opinion of "next level" standards....or to begin a comparison between it and something else you have experience with. That is counterproductive and puts them out of a happy mood and on the defensive!! Get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Lord, holy type face. Well, I think there is nothing wrong with a little debate here and there and when trying to hone in on specifics to better understand the gear and qualities surrounding that gear, you are going to get into debates and disagreements, especially when value judgements are being placed on worth, both sonically and monetarily. Add to this the desparity in experience and exposure, and you will get many types of opinions here. In my mind, this thread was fine untile Ricktate blew back with that over-the-top response to my simply questioning a statement, a statement that actually ended up being more a simple typo. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 OK, then, Kelly, How about this? Let's just stand together, buddy, and tell Rick Tate: "Hey, that's great! We are so happy you are enjoying your "new" old H/K 430 with your LaScalas! It seems there are more than one recent purchaser of this little unit who are happy with it and with its low cost to them!" "When you get a chance, could you give us a more detailed impression of how it performs as compared to other units you have used in your listening environment with your LaScalas? How about its tuner? Give us more info on that part of it. What about its pre-amp section?" Now, Kelly...wasn't that easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Hang in there, HDBR. One day you will master the skill of close reading, appreciate the display of subtle wit, and be able to distinguish the sonic signature of a display light on a CD player. Then you will be ready for mobile's posts, which surely only the most learned of the learned can fully grasp. Remember, on this forum it's mobile's way or the highway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 LOL! Yeah...I am just another forum "Loon"...LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Mobile's way or the highway? Please dont write any lyrics, Paul. Just remember, if you are not exposed to it, dont hear it, or are not aware of it, it does not exist. But why argue. I'm going to reserve comment on the H/K 430 from now on. I personally have always thought for a small extra outlay in cash, that a significant increase in sonics could be had with a tube amp purchase over just about any solid state. But again, that is not to say that happiness cant be had from the 430, as this is obviously the case. Andy, if you chose not to pay attention to these differences you discussed in the post above or consider them important, that is fine and understandable. I personally found these differences made a big deal to me. Which is why I no longer have B&K M200 Sonata Monoblocks, Adcom amps, PS Audio gear, Aragon 4004 etc. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 This board is highly entertaining. Pure and simple. Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Hell, I forgot when I bought my Chorus II's for $275, I picked up the Yamaha MX-1 power and CX-1 pre-amp that came with the speakers a couple of weeks later. The amp and pre-amp was bought for $100. The MX-1 retails at $1200 and the CX-1 pre $800 So I was into that setup for under $400. Loud? 116 decibels, with the volume knob at around ten o'clock on that 440 watt monster. Any more was too harsh and bright for the Chorus II's. Way overkill for those speakers. This is why I went to tube amps, and sold the Yamaha gear. (Plus I was interested in tube amps.) Now I know that my $100 dollars worth of Yamaha gear would have eaten Harmon Kardon receivers for breakfast. Can't see a 30 year SS receiver of it's power rating even touching a mid-nineties top of the line SS 440 watt power amp and 50 watt pre. But you still may under $375 for your Heresey HK set-up. rendering my post pointless. Enjoy your Harmon Kardon 430, I do plan on looking for one locally. I can always use a back-up amp in case I'm without a tube amp for some reason, not to mention just plain curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Good observation, Mace...Got me laughing with THAT one! LOL! Mike, You went to tubes partly because "less is better" with your Klipsch speakers...and you doubt the H/K 430 with just 25 wpc rating could at least hold its own SONICALLY with a "1990's-era 440 watt Yammie monster" using Chorus speakers? Are you serious? Think, man! You are in for a surprise...but don't tell anybody I told ya so!! LOL! BTW, Mike...what is the Chorus' given performance?...how many decibels?...at how many watts? (one, isn't it?) at how far? (one meter, isn't it?) And how many watts does the H/K 430 have in its CONSERVATIVE factory rating? (25 per channel, isn't it?) And how many power transformers does it have dedicated to provide for needed complex musical passage peaks in its amp section? (one PER channel, isn't it?) LOL! SURPRISE!! Time to ask some of these H/K 430 guys at just where on its volume control(with their particular Klipsch speakers), they feel compelled to leave the room because it is just too damned LOUD to REMAIN IN the room! LOL! Hopefully, you will someday soon be in a position to answer THAT question for YOURSELF! LOL! As for me...I don't have a SPL meter...because I don't NEED one! I just listen to my music where I like to hear it, volume-wise. I am not a decibel freak. I like to hear good clean music with no backround noise. On occassion I will really crank up the volume just for the hell of it, and to "dust-off the woofers", as PWK used to say...LOL! My H/K 430 works just fine for those needs, and it can get much louder through just my Heresys than I want to sit and listen to...so that is more than enough for me! I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Mike...I never said "mine is better than yours"...I just said...you are in for a surprise! LOL! Your comments are more than welcome...I enjoy reading your posts...so if what I said ticks you off...sorry! That is not my intent, man! As for my saying you are in for a surprise, I have said that to everybody who has hinted at the desire to get an H/K 430...for ANY reason...and I have yet to hear(read) a single one of them was NOT surprised! That is what I meant! Ask them! LOL! I think Rick Tate was using a Yammie...don't remember which model, the era, or how much power it was rated at...Holler at him! Maybe you two have used the same model! It doesn't really matter, though...everytime I have been asked, I have said a surprise was coming, and I don't really think anybody ever really believed it...until it hit em! LOL! Such is the way of life! LOL! It is like running around hollering "the sky is falling!"...LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Why don't we all load all our audio crap into panel trucks, and meet in Scottsdale (at Doug's house) for a week or three. We can even catch a few Cactus League games! Oh, yeah, don't forget the vino. I'll bring a Carol Shelton Monga Zin* that will kick everyone's a$$!! *this is the good stuff!! fini's favorite zin! fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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