ChrisK Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Dave, I've been reading with great interest your posts regarding vinyl records to computer hard drive for playback in a stereo system. I have a couple of older PC's from my business that I'd like to put to use in such a fashion. Please keep in mind that I am a near total pea-brain on such subjects. So if it's a pain in the arse, no worries, I'll keep reading up until I get it straight. With the above in mind, I have a few questions - 1. Equipment Needs a. Computer I. What size hard drive? (How much storage space is required for the average LP?) Recommended minimum processor speed? Recommended soundcards? II. Do the soundcards have appropriate "in" and "out" jacks for use with conventional cables? As long as we're talking cables here, what do you think about wireless transmission from the computer to the amplifier? Is there signal loss? I don't think my boss, eruhh, wife will let me set up a computer in the living room, so I need it to be as unobtrusive as possible. III. What software do you recommend for transfer and playback? b. Stereo System I. For transfer from vinyl, do you plug the "out" jacks from your amp (in my case a Cary integrated) directly in to the computer? Or, can you plug your phono stage in to the computer? I'm a little fuzzy on this part. I hope this post doesn't sound completely idiotic. I am truly very intrigued by the idea of high quality, low hassle sound. Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I am not exactly a genius, so I suspect you can handle this. >1. Equipment Needs a. Computer Your old computers will do fine, assuming they are at least 350 mhz Pentium class. A lessor machine MIGHT work, but this level always will. Also, as much memory as you can get in there, at least 256k. As to HDD space requirements...plenty. An LP recorded at 24/96 is over 4 times as information rich as the same on a CD, and requires over 4 times the space...between 3 and 4 gig per disc. Of course, you can record at lower resolution, but isn't it that LP sound we are trying to get? While many may beg to differ, I submit that "LP" sound is a function of information density, not some magical analog thing. Anyway, back to the subject at hand... As to soundcards, I recommend Card Deluxe without qualification. It's about 380.00 delivered. However, you get more electronics for your money on any soundcard compare to a CD transport, since all you are buying is electronics. I suspect Audigy 2, which does 24/96, would be decent...but I've not tried it. Certainly even my old AWE32 Soundblaster sounds better than most consumer CD players, and my old ISA Turtle Beach Pinnacle as well. Just make sure it will handle 24/96 if you want the best from your LP's. As to IO, most cards use miniplugs, though some, like the Audigy 2 deluxe package, come with a front panel IO that has either/both 1/4' or RCA. My Card Deluxe has 1/4" balanced or unbalanced in, and RCA digital IO. As to wireless transmission, I can't help you there, though I suspect if you are sending RF analog, some degradation is inevitable. If you are sending digital, then no problem. If this works for you, I can suggest a couple of quiet, attractive cases that blend so nicely your wife won't know it's a computer. Another soon available option will be the Sonic Blue LAN DVD player (list 249.00) that is expected this quarter. Not sure about wireless options on it yet, but with a LAN connected, it can access pre-arranged directories of music, photos, video, etc. on a remote computer via it's handheld remote. Looking forward to it! Hate wasting a computer in the LR! For recording, I use Sound Forge 6. It's pricey, but the best for my location use. However, unlike other areas, price is no indicator of quality in digital recording software...it's the cards that do the work. So for basic recording N-track Studio at around 70.00 downloaded will do the trick. I hate the interface...it is NOT intuitive, but it works and is cheap. Bear in mind the above is only necessary for 24/96 LP recording. All you need for recording LP's to CD quality is the built-in Windows recorder. For transferring CD's to HDD, Exact Audio Copy does exactly what it says, delivering the most perfect digital transfer possible and taking as long as necessary to do it, and that is something no CD player at any price can do since they must work in real time. Further, if you have an internet connection, it will automatically download and catalog the names, durations, etc. of the CD's. For playback, I like WinAmp. It's free, it's easy, and it gives me remote control of volume, muting, etc. for my tube amp using a wireless keyboard and mouse. For connection, it's just like any audio component. Line out to line in on the soundcard, and vice versa. Dive in. I'll talk you through it, you'll have some fun, and you might even be surprised at what you hear. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 as far as a sound card, try the M-Audio Revolution, I it does 24/192 playback and 24/96 recording and costs around 80-120 bucks. The audigy is nothing compared to this card in sound quality IMHO. The Audigy2 is the only other consumer card that approaches it in sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I'm listening, too! This is something I WILL be able to do one day soon, and I have a special interest in recording my old albums to high resolution digital playback. I think this new 'pop and click' removal ability Dave has mentioned previously is especially significant. He has said that it effectively removed from playback until a pop of click is 'sensed'. That implies that it is not in any way compromising the other aspects of the signal or frequency response. Pretty neat! So I'm still with you, Dave....just trying to get some basic things taken care of before I can make the first step. Looking forward to a listen in a couple of weeks! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Thanks, Justin. I'd wondered about that card but had my doubts about it at the price. Granted, it could easily match the electronics of a Rega Planet (don't go ballistic, folks, I'm just suggesting that the equivalent electronics of the Planet couldn't cost much more than that) at the price, but I had not auditioned one. I'd love for someone to give it a shot. Be nice to have a choice other than Card Deluxe. Justin...surely one doesn't get any 24/96 record software with it at the price? That would be WAY too much! Erik: Really looking forward to you coming up. Keep me informed. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthfreek Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I record in my home studio and I'm an official studio gear freak. I second Justin's pick for the M-Audio card. The M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 is also highly regarded by bedroom musicians. Most of these cards actually DO comebundled with some sort of audio editor but it's usually a scaled-down "lite" version or a demo(but usually full-functioning). I use a great card made by EgoSys called the Wamirack. Check http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/synthfreek/wamirack24.jpg'> THIS href> beast out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Lite is good enough for most audiophile purposes. The question is, does the bundled software provide 24/96 recording? Actually, there are quite a few 24/96 capable cards and external USB PC audio solutions that support 24/96. I just don't know how they sound. Which is, of course, the rub. I'd like to hear from anyone who has 24/96 capable PC hardware about their opinions. No, this is NOT for the "Soundcard" forum. It's 2 channel every bit as much as turntables and such. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 When I was reading about HTPC the M-Audio Revolution card seemed to be a favorite...not that vinyl recording was a priority for HTPC but it cought my attention. I've been planning on sticking a card in one my extra PCs so I think I'll try the M-Audio in my Kayak PII/400 and connect it to my PAS 3 and ST-70. I've been recording using Windows and nero wave editor so I look forward to trying another solution. I would like a player that isn't as bright as my low-end Toshiba DVD player which I've been using as a CD player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Windows recorder will not do 24/96. I've not been able to determine whether M-audio bundles a 24/96 recorder with the card. Cheapest otherwise I know of is N-track at 70.00 download. Just a heads up. I am looking forward to your experience and reviews of this. Let me know if I can help. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dave, What about the Fast Eddit program that is bundled with the card deluxe any good ?? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 FYI on the M-audio revolution: 24-bit/192kHz audio playback on all output channels. Analog line in supports recording up to 24-bit/96kHz Analog mic in supports recording up to 24-bit/96kHz Coaxial digital output S/N Ratio A->D: 100dB S/N Ratio D->A: 107 dB (eight channel/two channel) Driver-Level Bass Management Windows Media 9 Compatibility Revolution 7.1 comes with over $200 of high-quality software including: Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 (full version) MixMan Studio (full version) VJ Lite (full version) WinDVD 4 (Dolby Digital EX version) Propellerhead Reason (trial version) Ableton Live (trial version) Over 100 sounds and loops Free M-Powered Artists CD sampler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 This fascinates me too, as a bedroom musician and for another project. I have some very old tapes of a band I was in and desparately need to transfer those to the digital domain before they disintegrate. They also need processing, though this is secondary, and I was even thinking of paying (or trading equipment?) for someone to do this for me, as it will be a while before I can get a card and the software necessary to do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Craig: I rec'd neither FastEdit nor anything else bundled with my Card Deluxe. Up to now, they'be been used mainly by the scientific community where extreme cleanliness of signal was required. Ken: But does any of that software support 24/96 recording? That remains the question. If so, the deduct 70.00 from the price, as that is the cheapest I've found 24/96 record capability. Andy: I've 15" Reel to Reel still around, though 7.5 ips only, and Sound Forge noise reduction software. Don't know where you are, but if anywhere near DFW or you wish to ship, I might be willing to help. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Ok, so I am taking a look at M-audio. They have a 24/96 capable card at 120.00 list. Unbelievable. Of course, I don't know what it sounds like, but I suspect it's much better than Joe Average CD player. The more pro card is still only 229.00, and there is a really nifty USB unit at 350.00, all less than Card Deluxe. I've queried them as to whether they supply bundled software that is 24/96 record capable. If so, these are SERIOUS contenders for low cost entry into digital LP storage and better than average (perhaps MUCH better) CD playback. I'm looking forward to the answers. Erik, Chris, and others wanting to get into this area should look into these cards. I cannot recommend what I haven't heard, but my gut feeling is that these are real contenders. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dave, A HUGE thank you for the all the information. The picture is beginning to take shape in my woefully techno-idiotic brain. So far I've boiled it down to (if you already have the computer) - sound card upgrade: $150-$400, pretty easy installation transfer software: $70-$400, somewhat of a learning curve suspected here playback software/equipment: WIRED players: free, many options cabling: let me see...are the Cardas Gold just a tad bit more "airy" than the MIT's, and the latest W.G.U. Deluxe (Weapons Grade Uranium) cables from N. Korea? Just kidding, cable guys. WIRELESS - My father-in-law (MONSTER Jazz freak), has burned all (300-400) of cd's onto the hd of his laptop and desktop (MP3, I believe). He plays them wirelessly through his fairly modest system at home and loves it. I'm wondering what might work well from my home office (upstairs) to our living room? Will there be signal loss that will make the entire exercise of getting high quality sound futile? storage: It seems like HD's run from about $1.00 per gig for internal to $2.00-$2.50 per gig for external to $2.50-$4.00 per gig for portable. So, if you leave them on the HD, your figure of 3-4 gigs per album works out to $4.00 and up in storage costs per record. Question here, after downloading on to your computer, can you then burn on to a cd? What kind of sound quality loss might be expected? Thanks again for all your info, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 >transfer software: $70-$400, somewhat of a learning curve suspected here. Just recording with N-track isn't a big deal, but editing is a nightmare which I rapidly gave up since I had other, better options. I am sure it would be easy enough once you learned it. Of course, if you just want to leave your LP's as continuous files, this wouldn't be an issue. Getting around such files in WinAmp is not much harder than doing it with a tonearm. >I'm wondering what might work well from my home office (upstairs) to our living room? Will there be signal loss that will make the entire exercise of getting high quality sound futile? I'd suggest seeing how much trouble a cat 5 LAN cable would be to run. It's cheap, easy, and goofproof. I've my doubts about wireless, unless you are talking about 801.11 wireless LAN, which will not degrade anything. Of course, both of the above imply a computer at the other end, which you indicated might be a problem with the wife. Perhaps that 250.00 SonicBlue LAN capable DVD drive will come to the rescue... >It seems like HD's run from about $1.00 per gig for internal to $2.00-$2.50 per gig for external to $2.50-$4.00 per gig for portable. 1.00 per gig is about the max. I'd forget about the other options and go with the RMD boxes mentioned above. They solve a LOT of computer problems besides audio storage. Also, USB boxes are available very cheap. I bought a 48X burner a few months ago for 99.00 new that came in one, so the empty USB 2.0 boxes shouldn't be more than 50.00 or so if you want true portability. >Question here, after downloading on to your computer, can you then burn on to a cd? What kind of sound quality loss might be expected? Good question not explored here before. If you want to make CD's of at least CD quality (by that, I mean sounding at least as good as commercial top end CD's), you are going to want to settle for recording your LP's at 24/88.2 instead of 24/96. The reason is that 24/88.2 is mathematically double CD rate, while 96 is not. Transcoding from 24/96 to 16/44.1 means the computer has to dither the odd bits. While I enjoy the computer in my listening room, I don't want it making decisions about what to throw away! I've not down LP's at 24/88.2, but I suspect they'd be either close or undetectable from 24/96, as both rates are FAR higher resolution that CD. Of course, you can always just do another recording of the LP at 16/44.1 as well, or you may not find the transcoding very offensive. But be forewarned if you do... In general, I've found my own location CD's, whether recorded at CD rate or 24/88.2 and transferred down to sound much better than all but a handful of commercial releases. I've assumed this to be a function of the direct, not processed, equalized, transcoded, or mixed signals from my VT mic preamp, ribbon mics, and Card Deluxe (though early stuff done on my Sony RM-500 had the same qualities). Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 My dad(marvel) has the M-Audio 24/96 card. From what I have heard that has been recorded with this, I would say the sound is great. The quality of sound and lack of background noise is the main thing that jumped out at me. Perhaps Marvel could comment on this as it is his gear and not mine Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 I (and others) would like to know if Marvel rec'd 24/96 recording software with the card, and a review would be most helpful since no one seems to have experience with it and the price is right. Also, I'd like to clarify what I was saying above about LANS/wireless movement of music. Untranscoded DIGITAL transfer anywhere in the house or the world will not alter sound quality. However, FM or any process requireing transcoding or other alterations in the original digital info will leave the audio sounding like the last thing that happened to it...just like any analog operation. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dave, Take a look at the devices on this page. If the audio format and bit rate is acceptable, I may be headed in this direction. http://www.sonicblue.com/shop/_templates/cat_list.asp?cat=34 Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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