NOSValves Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Dean, So Craig, tell me -- what would you rather have? A set of Dynaco MK III's running in ultra-linear with a little bit of feedback, or a Eico, Scott, Fisher, or SET? Don't you even try to lie to me or cough up some total B.S. No BS here if money was no object I would hands down out of the choices you listed go with the Mark III's Modded just like I did Dales with mild feedback and strapped in Triode hands down end of story. In fact I'm waiting on my good buddy Mark Deneen to name a price on his units right now !! I really can't comment on SET because I haven't heard it but for a short while at a audio get together so you never know but I just can't honestly ever see me living with 3.5 watts no matter what !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 I don't think Mark would sell them to you if he knew you were going to take them out of Ultra-Linear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Yea right !!! He does the same basic thing himself !! Only Class A but he uses SS on the woofers so he doesn't need the extra omph !! I think they absolutely Rock in Triode !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 12, 2003 Author Share Posted March 12, 2003 How often do Dynaco MK III's come up on eBay or Audiogon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 There are always a couple sets on Ebay but these would be way out of your budget by the time they were modded. I personally think in there factory original design they a not worth a darn !! They usually go for $500 to $600 a set and require more than that in Mods and new tubes to get them to the level I'm talking about. If your lucky enough and get a set with output tubes that are in good shape the cost goes down some. But still your going to need a preamp and the rest to go with them. With your budget you should either buy a Vintage integrated or a new amp in your price range. End of story unless you stretch your budget ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 m00n, DO NOT start bidding on a pair on Audiogon. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 12, 2003 Author Share Posted March 12, 2003 ---------------- On 3/12/2003 7:14:10 PM dbflash wrote: m00n, DO NOT start bidding on a pair on Audiogon. Danny ---------------- Why? Is that pair yours? NOSValves, Ok. I was mostly asking for reference in the event I am able to swing it later on. Most of my questions are for future reference anyway. I for the time being will be powering my belles with my Harman Kardon unless I find something else that I really like. I know you have some stuff I should definilty look at. So far out of the ventage stuff, I think the fisher equipment has the most appeal to me cosmetically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 12, 2003 Author Share Posted March 12, 2003 Is this a good receiver and good buy? McIntosh MAC 1900 Stereo Receiver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 m00n, these guys are not kidding about the real power needs of these speakers, they just don't need much. I have a pair of LaScala's, very similar to your Belles. I have a Eico HF-81 driving them. It's only making about 10 watts/channel but I can't turn it past about 3 or so and stay in the same room. The problem with squalid state is the same as always, the low distortion numbers are measured with the amp putting out full rated power. It's just a numbers game for the marketing droids, it has no meaning in the world of Heritage. with one (1) watt your Belles will make over 100dB of sound, with 5 the neighbors will be calling the police. What you need is an amp that's optimized to put out super clean power in 1-5 watt range, SS in general just isn't good at this. I have the meters and stuff, here's what I saw last night: I was sitting on the couch listening to some BB King and Santana along with some piano jazz. the couch is about 12 feet from the speaks, I had it turned up to produce about 90dB at one meter from the grilles. this was about 80 or so at the couch. This is loud enough to be difficult to talk over. I measured the the voltage at the speaker terminals, it was running in the 100 to 300 millivolt range. One watt is about 2.8 volts. My speakers were generating 90dB with about 1/15th of a watt, more or less. That why 50 watts/channel is useless with these speakers. a 50 watt amp is going to be in it's sweet spot at 35 to 45 watts, you will never run anything near that into a set of Belles unless you start renting them out as PA for outdoor events. What you need is an amp that puts out super clean low distortion power at 1 to 5 watts. You probably won't get above that very often. That's why these vintage 10 - 20 watt/channel vintage tubes are such a great deal. They sound great at sane levels and have enough oomph to kick but at over 110dB too. It's all you need. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Craig -- I was just razzing you. 30 wpc is perfect for the big stuff. Wiring those pentodes in triode probably does help smooth things out a bit with those earbleeders. Something I haven't figured out yet is what happens to the distortion levels with this mod -- can you see it on a scope? Tom, "I have a Eico HF-81 driving them. It's only making about 10 watts/channel..." I thought these were 14 wpc -- or screw up your pentodes too? "With one (1) watt your Belles will make over 100dB of sound...what you need is an amp that's optimized to put out super clean power in 1-5 watt range." Here we go again. Am I talking into the wind here? Why not just run a Decware Zen? 1.5 watts of Single Ended Triode -- for peanuts no less. Run up to that watt, get your 101db -- and it will sound like Sh!t. "I measured the voltage at the speaker terminals, it was running in the 100 to 300 millivolt range. One watt is about 2.8 volts. My speakers were generating 90dB with about 1/15th of a watt..." Betcha those meters aren't telling you the whole story. Bruce Edgar used to sing this tune too, however as of late -- has been advocating the idea that big 'ole horns need at least 30 to 40 watts. "A 50 watt amp is going to be in it's sweet spot at 35 to 45 watts..." I agree 50 watts is complete overkill for Belles, but I don't understand what you are saying here with this statement. Would you mind elaborating for me? I'm being sincere -- I just don't understand the statement. "What you need is an amp that puts out super clean low distortion power at 1 to 5 watts." Are you saying that a 50 watt amp is incapable of doing this? How about a 20 watt amp? This is such a generalized statement -- it almost doesn't mean anything. How do we define "super clean", and what's cleaner -- a push-pull running pentodes at a watt in Class A, or a pentode wired for triode at a 1/4 watt in Class A? Bottom line is that you are right for the most part, and what I would really like to see Moon do -- is get himself 20 good watts of vintage, let Craig work it over -- and get into the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 There were several recommendations from AUDIOGON earlier in this thread....wouldn't the $350 Curcio ST-70 mod be a good value? That seems cheaper than buying one broken and doing the mod yourself. Of course then the big expense is still looming--the pre-amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Dean, Well distortion is non existent to Mopar Dave , Dales and my ears so isn't that enough proof ? How this would work with your amps and speakers who knows. The day Mopar Dave and I did the listening session we had the SLP meter out and were pushing the old Lascalas in my nasty basement to 112 DB and didn't find it at all objectionable very dynamic, crystal clear and utterly amazing !! What more do you need ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Tom said: "With one (1) watt your Belles will make over 100dB of sound...what you need is an amp that's optimized to put out super clean power in 1-5 watt range." Dean said: "Here we go again. Am I talking into the wind here? Why not just run a Decware Zen? 1.5 watts of Single Ended Triode -- for peanuts no less. Run up to that watt, get your 101db -- and it will sound like Sh!t. Dean, I think you are painting with too broad a brush also. In my personal experience not all 1.5/3.5/5 watt amps perform anything alike (I think you already know this). I auditionied the Decware Zen Signature Triode Mono Blocks (model SV83M) @$1995 that Steve Deckert rates at 3.6 watts. They ran out of clean power in the low 90dB level (in my room with my speakers). I wanted to love the Zen amps. I asked Steve if I upgraded to the "Dual Core" option (5.7 watts + another $500) could I get into the upper 90-100dB range and he said probably not. I had the same clean volume problem with the ASL MGSI15DT @5wpc (in triode mode) it ran out of steam in the mid 90 dB range. I do not have a problem going into the <100dB range with the Moondogs. I may be one of the relatively few loons around here that have tried as many amps and preamps as you have in a relatively short period of time. I ended my search with the Moondogs (except maybe for a pair of 45 mono's from Jeff Lessard)...I'd like to see what that 1.5 watts can do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafbykhorns Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Moon, You are at the starting point with tubes where I was about 7 yrs ago. You probably wont stop at a Dynaco or an Eico once you made the mods. I probably would go back and do the same thing because it was fun and a learning experience. Go by your local thrift store and look for a console that has an internal tube amp. These can be quite a suprise for quality with a few mods. This is what I ended up with after all my effort: McIntosh MC240 with a few power supply mods, ALKS crossovers (Khorn), B&O TT and a Bryston .4b preamp (no tone controls). This system needs no tone controls as it is damn near perfect. You can even connect a CD player to the amp directly as it has volume pots. This is for music only but with a quick change of spk cables I am connected to my DTS/DD system. I am in the process now of scratch building a SE 300b amp. It seems I cant get away from this hobby even though i found perfection. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.