prodj101 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 mkl, you're comparing very different things, and the terrorists didn't just decide they were going to kill a bunch of people for the fun of it, they were doing it for a cause. they were sick of the United States presence in the middle east, and the support of Israel. they felt the only way their concerns would be addressed would be to kill thousands of people and take down national land marks, and they were pretty much right. until than, we payed little mind to the problems in the middle east, and just looked the other way. once again, not justifying what the terrorists did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 ---------------- On 3/30/2003 7:33:43 PM prodj101 wrote: mkl, you're comparing very different things, and the terrorists didn't just decide they were going to kill a bunch of people for the fun of it, they were doing it for a cause. they were sick of the United States presence in the middle east, and the support of Israel. they felt the only way their concerns would be addressed would be to kill thousands of people and take down national land marks, and they were pretty much right. until than, we payed little mind to the problems in the middle east, and just looked the other way. once again, not justifying what the terrorists did. ---------------- i have quoted the entire post of the previous poster....so i am not taking anything out of context....the previous poster "is not justifying" what the terroists did.....but he is defending their actions..."for a cause"... defending the actions of terrorists.....sure sounds like a terroist supporter to me maybe the poster should consult his lawyer before he decides to defend terrorists' activities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 well said prodj...that guy doesn't need a lawyer. If you missed the point, however, prodj is correctly looking to the underlying motives of those who committ the acts, not just the means. This, by the way, was the thrust of my position. If it was not clear, I apologize, as I see how you may have construed my position to support rapists. Please note, however, I do not feel that rapists are brave. bruin, c'mon. that insult is not only a gross generalization, it is worthy of a Jay Leno monologue (which is to say neither humorous nor particularly insightful). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkl Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Yeah, I really don't think I am comparing different things. All you are saying is that the people who committed these crimes had a reason, not just for the fun of it. Im sure if you asked serial killers and rapists, they have reasons too. I really feel their reasons are the same, both bull****. A rapist might tell you that women like to be brualized and deehumanized, or a serial killer might be delusional and tell you that he HAD to kill to save mankind etc. It doesn't make them brave, and it doesnt make their violence against women and children any more acceptable. As far as "we payed little mind to the problems in the middle east," I view that as Bull**** too, America has been dealing with the problems of the middle east on a daily basis for years. Now, we weren't doing what they wanted (like killing all the jews) but hey, we were dealing with it. I think the point I want to come across is this: Do not confuse stupidly or insanity with bravery. Let me lay it on the line: 1.It is wrong to purposely target innocent women and children to kill. 2.It is brave to stand up for what you believe. 3.However, If what you believe in calls for you to target women and children intentionally, you are insane. I've seen the, Im just not taking the other people culture into account excuses, and just let me say this There are certain inherit values that all cultures and all people throughout time have believed in. (Since I'm not doing an indepth philosophy lesson here, I'm going to leave out such things as exceptions like for the insane etc.) One of these values is that human life is valuable, and people should not be murdered. In my line of thinking, bravery is a value. That value is showing courage and following through on a good act. I feel alot of philosophers/rational human beings would accept this as valid. So possibly the reason I disagree so strongly, is that is my definition of bravery and others varies. If the definition of bravery was just "Willing to do anything to achieve goals" I would probably accept that terrorists are brave. However, the fact that they were willing to break the rules of their own religion , shows me that they weren't doing this because they had religious faith and thought it was right, but that they were vicious spiteful humans who had been brainwashed into killing. Yeah, I didn't think Susan Atkins was brave either and I regard people like that in the same regard as the terrorists. /rant> Everytime I read that terrorist are brave it just really boils me and makes it hard to believe that anyone could support/rationalize these atrocities. My only hope is the people who are saying this simply haven't had the experience to know the difference between a words definition, and what the word really means. I'm really not going to say anymore about this whole thing, It's not worth it. I will no longer reply in public to this thread. If anyone wants a philosophy lesson, or just wants to argue with me, I can be reached through private messages. -mkl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I think that prodj is explaining what the terrorists did from the terrorists' perspective. At least, I am not reading this to be defending their position. Anyway, I guess I do have a couple of other absolute truths. One is know your audience. There is a time and a place for everything. On some subjects, some will not accept your reasoning no matter how artfully you believe it to be delivered. This is obviously one of those topics, and rightfully so. So I will compbine that thinking with another personal rule...don't piss in yer own pool...and bow out of this discussion before I participate in another forum-burner-downer. Gents, good luck. I encourage you not to bang your collective head into the wall too long on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 oh...oh...oh.....let us all have a big group hug here so we can all understand the underlying motivations why these 20 individuals killed over 3000 innocent men, women, and children.....and by the way...let's call them "brave" why stop there?...let's get osama and saddam to join us in our hug and complain about the aggressive americans and how they are after the oil in the mideast... kain, kev, and prodj....you can have your "brave" discussion....all of you ramble on about understanding motivations....terrorists are not like rapists because they had "a cause"....and then in the last sentence of the post say that you don't support terrorism..... three total POS posters....a *******, a lawyer, and a 14 yr old...really no surprise at the crap they are posting..... moderators...do your stuff....i'm sick of this pathatic "terrorists are brave" sh*t... i'm outta here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 oh jeez...I'm back already. Please minn, call the moserators. Then go back, reread my posts, and then compare them (which I felt were at least calm and well-reasoned, even if you disagree with the conclusions)to your last post in which you lay out the racist "*******" comment. Real nice. Gives a good point of reference for the rest of your posts. America is more than the big blond-headed nordic folk from Minnesota or Wisconsin or wherever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 i apologize to all the arabs and 14 yr olds out there for including them with "lawyers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Clever response. Listen, just for giggles, why don't we have it out on your opinions of lawyers. Give me something above the usual "greedy," "need for tort reform" (which I agree with), "liars" comments. You know, something with some reasoning that rises above a punchline. You refer to lawyers as a class. That is a pretty diverse group, so your reasoining should be applicable to all. You know, real estate, corporate, criminal defense, insurance defense, work comp petitioner, prosecutors, civil rights, administrative judges, judicial clerks. Basically, all of these people who get a solid undergrad education and then go thru three years of further study of case law and legal reasoning. Let's go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Kev - Comparing what the 9/11 suicide terrorists did to what our soldiers are doing in Iraq now is absurd to say the least. Killing thousands of innocent people because of ANY reason is insane, not brave. What our troops are doing (risking their lives for) is attempting to avoid this type of terror and the murder of innocent lives in the future, whether it be flying planes into skyscrapers, testing chemical weapons on your own people or using human shredders against people who disagree with your political policies. As much oil as Iraq has, what percentage of the population do you think can afford a pair of Klipsch speakers? How nice would your HT system be if you were an average Iraqi citizen? This is what our "brave" troops are attempting to change. It may not work but that is the intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istari Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 kain, kev, and prodj are just POS. pr0dj and kev don't understand...(btw that is a zero in pr0dj) pr0dj is a young puke who is pampered by a rich daddy who gives him everything he wants (just like kains daddy, any resemblence here?). Both he and his daddy have never had to put on a uniform and go thru the grind of military life. He has been handed his freedom by patriots who have sacraficed all to keep this land free. kain's views are why we are over there in that pile of rocks and sand now, WATCH OUT kain!!!! INCOMMING!!!!!! Kev, well, he is a lawyer... need I say more... I would like to see an age limit to this forum, I hate to see these immature pukes on line pissing us off like they do... The real solution to this problem would be to not respond to these young children, (they are still children until 18 right?) and let them die on the vine. God Bless America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 It's shortsighted and stupid to not recognize the courage of your enemy. This was one problem we had in WW II in the Pacific when early on we thought the Japanese were a bunch of near-sighted, pigeon toed, cowardly midgets. We found out different though, didn't we. Killing innocent women and children has been normal practice in war until very recently. Americans themselves have made war in this manner, especially in our Indian Wars. Read about King Philip's War fellas, among others. Some cultures still have this view of war, a view in which every member of the enemy "tribe" is fair game because small ones become big ones and women breed them. To judge our enemy by our values may make us feel better in a chest-thumping way but brings us to no closer to understanding this enemy. And to destroy them you must understand them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 The practice of The Law is the most noble of professions, more so even than Medicine. Without lawyers we are helpless when confronting those with more power than we have. Without lawyers we'd still be driving exploding Pintos and untold thousands more would be killed in industrial accidents than are now (though plenty still are). Lawyers protect the innocent wrongly accused and some day when some of you jaspers who disparage lawyers find yourself in trouble you'll want the sharpest lawyer you can find. Thank God we live in a system of law and not of the whims of the powerful and wealthy. I would explain the theory of the adversarial system of justice but so much goes over the heads of you yahoos I feel I'd be spreading pearls before swine. So many of you are more comfortable with slogans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Hobbit, Good reply. Saves me alot of effort. See when I put in a reasoned argument and you call me a peice of sh!t, I don't have to go too far to undercut the credibility of your argument. Anyway, for those with comprehension difficulities...I support the troops, oppose the war, and oppose terrorism. Although, this puts me in the minority here, I don't think it necessarily makes me an advocate of terrorism. I stand by the logic of my argument above. I don't support the actions of terrorists (I think the fact that I have to keep saying this should tell me that it is not worth my effort to argue further to this crowd) but I also accept the fact that my reality is not their reality nor is it objective reality. Do I think there is a difference between the terrorists and our troops. Of course. I do. But that is because I believe I stand on the side of what is right. I also think that others may have different views. Again, my views are not absolute truths. Go ask the family of "collateral damage" if there is a difference and you might get a different answer. See, the fact that I can recognize that this distinction exists, does not mean I support the other side. You guys seem to have a problem with this concept. **edited to refer to correct person** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Now Kev don't fly off the handle, adjust your tie deep breathe and pause. POS Plain ole stupid POS Point of Sale POS Positive POS Point of Signal POS Potential Overhead symetry POS Poly On Silicon POS Piece of sh!t Looking back at the context I personally would have picked Plain Ole Stupid Because after all the Moderators said that we could not be mean any more or we will be banished for life. And after all we are entitled to voice our opinions. But your life is to argue, thats understandable. Well I hope the next plane you're on doesn't fly into a building or get shot down by a stinger missile. Because after all those people performing that deeds really won't give a rats @55 who the hell you are, but will sure be appreciative of your kindness. Now you can fly off the handle Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 fly off the handle...hell, I also hope I don't fly into any buildings (although some might argue me on that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Scott---What war are you a veteran of? One of my apprentices is an ex submariner. I was amazed to learn he couldn't tie any knots, not even easy stuff like a bowline or clovehitch. He said sailors today don't tie knots. ??!!?? When my Dad was in the Coast Guard during WW II he learned all kinds of knots and even how to sail and navigate small boats. He was a real sailor, evidently some of these guys today would be helpless if exposed to the sea. I see you realized how kinky your old avatar was. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Kev, Why are you talking to a wall? The FerretDump entourage is pissed because their pal got his carcass banned! They will call anyone who does not kiss their behinds and does not follow them like the little dog T Blair an ANTI @meriCAN LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Ear, I know. I really did want to get out. It's pretty obvious people have some strong opinions and nothing will change that. Fine. We all don't have to agree. The name calling, tho'. That is just uncalled for. Can't let that go or those posters (**cough minn-male ** cough cough **) will think that you were silenced by their one ounce of argument/two pounds of smacktalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 ummm, hobbit, I'm just confused as to what the 0 in my name implies. are you trying to say that I'm a "zero" dj? well, either way, it's probably not a very good joke" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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