SteelerFan Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Is it just their ability to reach high SPL's at a certain hz range? Or is there more to it than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 What is a musical sub A musical sub is a subwoofer that can reproduce 80Hz down cleanly,with no artifacts.Artifacts like boom you hear from improper tuning,poor cabinet constriction,low quality woofers.Yes cheapo woofers(cones)in low cost speakers and subs bring unwanted colorations. Lets start with B0$e Acoustic Mess bass modules,these are the least musical pieces of you know what,no definition,just one notey boom,boom so disturbing you may vomit in the Acoustic Mess port and improve the sound. Paradigm PS series band pass subs,not so much cabinet resonance here as the cabinets are quite solid and braced.Just no definition and slow undefined bass.Great for first time HT fanatics who waht to impress the beer belly pals. For example the Sony WM40 is a great example of an UNMUSICAL POS,it booms and the bass is always irritating.Distorts badly and cant reach below 30Hz. Another but less pronounced example is the KSW lineup,here you can hear port noise and the poor cabinet damping.Results in a bit boomy bass,still much less irritating then the above boom box. Now a musical sub would be the Aerial SW12,its clean,no cabinet resonance,high quality woofer with a huge motor structure powering a light and stiff cone(piston).And of course a solid integrated amp. The result is just sub bass and no droning irritating unwanted noises(only some port noise at high SPL). Also the RSW is not boomy,clean bass no boom.Again the cabinet resonance is very low and the port noise is eliminated using passive radiators.Even if the RSW line response is not flat over the range it covers you dont hear any nasty boom. The SVS Ultras are also very deserving subs,no boom,no nsty colorations.Just clean subsonic bass.Here some may say they are less "musical" then the RSW.Not true they are more linear subs,and linearity is always a plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Yes there are musical/non musical subs.The klipsch rsw 12/15 are very good with music.I've owned a few of the other HIGHLY touted 1500.00 or less subs,and while great with ht,they were imo not very musical.The way I interpret musicality is when the sub recreates the drum,bass etc..realisticly,just as the instrument actually sounds.The non musical subs do ok on explosions,rumble,vibrate floors.When you hear a truly musical sub you WILL know,the bass and drums will come to a lifelike sound.Just try the rsw 12/15 and you'll see what musical is.I just got a Ted Nugent double dvd and the rsw 15 really kicks out the jams to insane levels at half volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 What is a musical sub ? For me this means a subwoofer that can conjure up without trouble, deep fundamental tones at high spl's without any overtones or harmonics and has good transient response and group delay. I own a very unmusical JBL arc8 sub that will not go low or loud without compressing, distorting and making some serious mechanical noises. Lol ! I am one to talk, aren't I ? That's why it sits dormant in the corner right now, detatched from the wall outlet. It was not bad with the yamaha mini-system I had, but it cannot hope to keep up with the klipsch speakers I own. I hope to upgrade to a Paradigm pw-2200 sometime in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I like how Jack Gilvey puts it. Here are two quotes from him: 1) As long as flat, extended deep bass doesn't strike you as amusical, then the SVS's are "musical". Many audiophiles find the presence of deep bass anathema, and much prefer subs which roll off deep bass giving the impression of "tightness" while, in actuality, it's "leanness". I find accurate reproduction of as wide a bandwidth as possible very "musical" as long as it's not at the expense of smooth FR or good transient response, a price not paid with an SVS or other well-engineered reflex designs. 2) I love hardware forum discussions on subwoofers...makes you really appreciate the DIY area. All kinds of "puffery" without the need for any knowledge apart from "I think it has more output" or "I think it's more musical". Output claims from uncontrolled listening sessions are invalid and ridiculous. "Musical" means whatever someone wants it to mean, although it's usually associated with rolled-off deep bass, a "low-Q" shape to the FR curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 I appreciate your answers fellas. You guys really know your s@#$. This is definately the best forum around for answers on HT. I'm in the market for a new sub and am waiting to see how the new SVS box sub (PB2) is going to be received. I'm torn between it and the RSW-15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Here's one of Tom Vodhanel's posts from HTF, he does an exellent job of describing what makes a subwoofer *musical*. The *musicality* of a subwoofer is dominated by several factors non related to the subwoofer at all (or related incidentally---like a built in XO). The room, the positions of the listening position and position of the subwoofer, the lowpass and highpass XOs used for both the subwoofer and the rest of the speakers , the phasing of the subwoofer relative to the rest of the speakers, and the calibration of the subwoofer. If you are using dipolar mains, a dipolar subwoofer will also have the advantage of a like acoustical dispersion pattern. The primary factor not related to the listening room or the setup method is simple user preference. The deepest bass has the longest soundwaves...the longer the soundwaves, the more of a bass *decay* the room will have. Deep bass takes time to decay, that is natural and inherent to the beast. Some folks mistake the longer decay for "slow" bass...when in fact, it is actually a more faithful reproduction of the source material.(compared to some of the smaller *musical* subs that cannot produce clean output <30hz). Then there is an issue of harmonics. Much of the pitch of the musical bass/drum will be determined by the number and amptitude of the harmonics of the fundametal note played. To some ears, if those harmonics are emphasized...even by a very small amount...the *pitch* of the bass guitar is made more obvious. The pacing of the bass line(s) become easier to follow...and folks can feel like that aids in the musical nature of the source playback. So in the end, the most accurate audio reproduction may not be what someone prefers. Some folks feel a well setup SVS is very musical, others disagree...it is largely a matter of personal preferences. (which is why the 45 day trial period is a good idea ). Group delay is one of those terms that oftens gets introduced to a thread like this, but only in ignorance. In this context, (16-22hz tuning for most of the ported subs being mentioned) group delay isn't going to make an audible difference on any bass guitar,kick drum ,piano...ect. Tom V. SVS[/i> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I actually don't like the word musical when dealing with subwoofers. If one subwoofer excels with HT and not music and another excels with music and not HT, I don't want. A subwoofer should not have a sound of it's own, if it has a sound of it's own, it's adding something to the sound that shouldn't be there or it's not reproducing what it should. I think a better word to describe a good subwoofer that has low distortion and can play low would be "accurate". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 ---------------- On 4/21/2003 7:23:59 PM fabulousfrankie wrote: The room, the positions of the listening position and position of the subwoofer, the lowpass and highpass XOs used for both the subwoofer and the rest of the speakers , the phasing of the subwoofer relative to the rest of the speakers, and the calibration of the subwoofer. ---------------- This is very true... it's not unusual to have room resonaces in the 10db range! So you "flat" sub may sound boomy in one room and musical in the next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 How about if you put one calibrated sub in the corner and its not at all musical?Then you put a rsw 12/15 calibrated in that same corner and it sounds fantastic,loud and clear.You send the NON musical sub back and say thanks for the $45.00 trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 it's the punchy part of the freq response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 "This is very true... it's not unusual to have room resonaces in the 10db range! So you "flat" sub may sound boomy in one room and musical in the next. " Answer GET AN EQ While I dont like to use the classic EQ with the world famous SMILE setting all B0$e fanatics must have in order to get a hint of both bass and upper end.I do recomend EQ use for subwoofers,its almost a must for anyone who wants to integrate a sub(s). A few lucky with near ideal matches(room/sub)may not need an EQ.Most however would gain from proper EQ use with subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 The RSW12 is very "clean" musically, I only wanted one sub for a "Musical" purpose. I had the RSW15 and found it "boomee", the 12 was smooth, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 ---------------- On 4/22/2003 10:55:18 PM TheEAR wrote: Answer GET AN EQ ---------------- Yup... for a SUB, that was what i was hinting at. I have a Behringer BFD on my short list. I have to build the sub first though ! Along the same idea, I'm curious how the new velo with built in EQ's perform Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just1n20 Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I remember posting a topic about finding the best priced musical sub while in the market, and one reply was "there isn't one." haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 What a nice thread, unlike what happens on other forums (when some dudes insist in spreading myths and no one gives a straight good answer, there is nothing else to say here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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