m00n Posted May 9, 2003 Author Share Posted May 9, 2003 Sko I just didn't know what was meant by "hornEd-zontalising" In very specific terms, what is "zontalising"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 9, 2003 Author Share Posted May 9, 2003 Sko I just didn't know what was meant by "hornEd-zontalising" In very specific terms, what is "zontalising"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 ---------------- On 5/9/2003 7:00:53 PM m00n wrote: Sko I just didn't know what was meant by "hornEd-zontalising" In very specific terms, what is "zontalising"? ---------------- Yeah, I was just screwing with ya there a little bit. "HornED-zontalising" is just a play on the word "Horizontalising", in that turning a vertical speaker to a horizontal configuration - which HornED seems to be famous for here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 mOOn-HELLLOOOO!!!! thanks skonopa. yeah, it's just my way of giving credit to hornEd for making me, and others, look at the idea of having an IDENTICAL center ch. in between the l,r fronts. by experimenting with properly placed fronts, and using 'phantom(center-NO)mode' on my receiver, i found that with the exception of not anchoring the sound firmly in the center of the screen, it actually sounded better than my klipsch-recommended-match c-7 $600 center channel BECAUSE it is NOT the same as my klf-30's. i want a klf-20 in med.oak to turn horizontal into a center channel.then i'll have the best of both. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 I think what we really need is an acoustically invisible 100" screen & a good HDTV projector. Then we could have any size matching center & place it right behind the screen. Talk about perfect dialogue placement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Is such a screen made for home use? I know they use these in theaters. If so, I could imagine that it will be very expensive. This would solve many center channel speaker placement issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 ---------------- On 5/10/2003 11:14:12 AM dndphishin wrote: Is such a screen made for home use? I know they use these in theaters. If so, I could imagine that it will be very expensive. This would solve many center channel speaker placement issues. ---------------- Well, we are talking about large heritage all around, plus a HDTV projector that goes to 100", so is money still a factor? Back to reality, yes it would be cool. Your right, theaters have the speakers behind the screen. I think it's worth looking into! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 I've been too engrossed in trying different horns, drivers, & networks in an attempt to improve the Klipschorn top end. This has been eating up all my free time the last several months, so I havn't been reading and posting on the forum too much. After reading this topic I just have to express my disapointment in some of the comments and opinions that I read here. Since when can't we discuss and share information about our personal experiences with each other in a positive way? We all have some of the same dreams and goals, and in this hobby it takes years to reach some of them. And unfortunately some of our goals will remain just dreams. I wouldn't expect anyone to go out and buy a complete new home theater system in one shot. I don't believe that is the way it is done, at least not for us dreamers. It's more or less done by purchasing one or two pieces at a time and upgrading every now and then when we can afford it or feel that we need to try something different. But this method isn't so bad, it gives you time to figure out if you made the right decisions along the way. What if Moon was able to buy six Belles for his home theater instead of two? He would have wasted a lot of money, since he didn't like the Belle. This again reminds me of the bickering that I'm reading here. When I read Moon's post about not liking the Belles did I reply and tell him that I think that he's nuts? No! For a few reasons I kept my opinions to myself. One, I don't like the Belle as much as the LaScala and Klipschorn. Second, I never heard the RF7. Third, no one can tell how a speaker will sound in a particular room. Forth, some people have to A/B a bass horn with a standard speaker to appreciate the different, cleaner, faster and more accurate bass reproduction. Speakers as you know, are the major component that makes your system sound the way it does. Experiment with different full range main speakers for as long as it takes, and this does take years. When you bring home a new main speaker carefully A/B it againts your current speaker. Your current speaker is your benchmark speaker, because it is the best that you have and like. Will this new speaker be your new benchmark? If so your lucky and moveing forward. If and when you are happy with your main speakers and believe that you are finally satisfied then it's a good time to step into the timbre matching arena. Now you are ready to find a way to use the same speakers for all your channels. This method of first finding the right speaker will keep you from having to replace a lot of speakers. It takes a long time to reach this dream or goal, but it's an interesting journey and you end up learning a lot. I thought my journey was over when I began using Kilpschorns as mains and LaScalas for my Center, Front Effects, and Rears along with my pair of Imperials for my second pair of Rears. Now I'm starting all over again. I changed the tops on three of my Klipschorns and figured out how to use a Klipschorn as a my front center channel. Now I have to build three more for my rear surrounds and rear center. Once you have lived with full range timbre matched speakers there is no going back. So, now that I once again set a new benchmark for my main speakers every speaker must match. This isn't too bad of a change, because I can sell my two pairs of Klipschorns to pay for the mods. There is nothing like using the same speakers all around. Sure you have to get creative to do so, but that is part of the fun of this hobby. Those of you who think that I and some others are bragging, or too one sided in our beliefs then go ahead and take your best shot. Those who understand that we are just sharing what we are doing, read on and take it with a grain of salt. Moon, someday when the time is right and the spirit moves you, you will try a few more RF7s. How do I know this? You are a curious person, and someone put the idea in your head and you will never stop thinking about it. Horn ED, It's good to see you back and hear that you have been having fun sharing your theater with others. By the way, I can't spell worth a darn eather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 11, 2003 Author Share Posted May 11, 2003 ---------------- On 5/10/2003 8:51:03 PM Q-Man wrote: Moon, someday when the time is right and the spirit moves you, you will try a few more RF7s. How do I know this? You are a curious person, and someone put the idea in your head and you will never stop thinking about it. ---------------- Phew... That statement is as true as it get.. This hobby, this quest, this addictive drug so to speak is on my mind at least 80% of the day every day and has been for the last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Rear surround, Jensen Imperial bass horn loaded with Klipsch drivers for that timbre match, and a LaScala on top for more envelopment. Imperial instead of Klipschorn besause of no rear corners. Don't open this picture, it's no good. See next reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Lets try that picture again. the first one was too large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 11, 2003 Author Share Posted May 11, 2003 And you can still hear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Since when can't we discuss and share information about our personal experiences with each other in a positive way? Good question Q-man. Perhaps Ed will answer your question in a straightforward manner. Just in case anyone here cares to reread my original post in this thread, you will note that I quoted an actual expert in an effort to offer encouragement to m00n after Eds uncalled for criticism in reference to m00ns choice of speakers and room paint color. Eds usual venom and personal attacks directed towards myself ensued. I never once stated in this thread my choice of surround speakers. IMO, there is no cut and dried answer for everyone to the surround speaker question considering the variables involved. It appears that Ed is tolerant of others opinion just so long as their opinion parallels his own. Just for laughs, here is a classic example of Eds doublespeak: in no way does it mean that I look down on people who find a roomful of acoustic fuzz to their liking. Ed is a master of the mouth. Another quote from ED: Hey, I agree that second class engineering deserves second class reproduction. I imagine the Engineers at Klipsch are elated that you agree with them Ed. The probability is high that some of those same Engineers developed the first class Legends that you incessantly brag about. A couple of more quotes from Ed and then a question: And, yes, I own both kind so I can test both approaches in different configurations. And also, standing room only crowds stated the WDST speakers sounded good but ordinary while the monopoles were clearly spectacular. The question I have for you Ed is exactly what WDST speakers were you testing? Klipsch never made matching surround speakers for the Legend speakers that I am aware of. Using any other line of surrounds would have been an unfair timbre matching test. From you, the self professed king of timbre matching. How about an answer Ed. Make it plain and simple please. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 A depressing thread in a way. I think the HT thing is kind of depressing. I remember the first time I dropped HBO because I got tired of paying to see reruns. Geepers, how many times can you watch a freaking movie and still really enjoy it? I own about 2 dozen DVD's -- good ones. I might play one once in a blue m00n. I still enjoy going the theater. It's an event. If I want to see a good movie -- I'll go to the movies and watch it on a real big screen. I guess I just don't get it. If I want to see it again later (much later) -- I'll watch it on my $6K 2-channel system. Which I cannot believe if anyone heard -- would actually audibly notice there was not a center channel, or would actually care that there wasn't any rear channel information. My system can make you forget about those things very quickly. I'm not bragging -- I'm dead serious. I cannot believe there needs to be such a thing as a "center channel". It's retarded. Sure, if you got a 20 foot long wall -- but for Pete's sake -- three RF-7's along a 10 foot wall -- three freaking feet apart -- with left and right crushed up against the walls!? Most HT's I see are similiar to this. Gear stacked everywhere, and speakers sandwiched anywhere they'll fit. I would love to do a frequency response plot of these HT rooms. I feel a rant coming on. Some of you with extensive 2-channel experience, seem to lose a whole complement of chromosomes when discussing or setting up multichannel. What? Do sensical sound acoustic principles vanish when you add speakers to a system? So, what happens when you place drivers, overlapping and covering the same set of frequencies -- close together? What happens when you overload a room with acoustic information -- especially low frequencies? What happens when radiators are placed close to side walls? Hey, I guess it's only HT -- m00n, you should have stayed with the RC-7 and saved some money. I ran RC-7's in my 2-channel rig before I had the money for the RF-7's There isn't anything wrong with the RC-7. Not only that, but the crossover and driver configuration were specifically designed to handle dialogue. As far as the other material pumped through the center goes -- when I had the RC-7's -- I sure didn't think they were bass shy or short on dynamics. Remember placement is everything. If you really want to take this thing to the next level -- get a separate amp to push those mains and center. Don't spend another damn penny on speakers. As far as the dipole/monopole thing goes -- I thought dipole rears were the THX standard? If this is true -- then that means recording engineers have this very much in mind when mixing things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 "If it is realistic to expect soundstage (the ability to pinpoint instruments and vocals in space) from our monopole speakers in a 2 channel system, why is it unrealistic to expect proper soundstage in a multichannel environment using monopole speakers, given that both scenarios are employing full range, discrete channels? The answer is, it's not. If the sound engineer knows what he is doing, we will get proper directionality using monopole speakers in a multichannel environment, given proper speaker placement." Your hypothesis is incorrect. What you are saying is that two (2) speakers in a 2-channel setup defeats directionalty. What you are describing more accurately describes a diffuse type speaker. Try this experiment for yourself: using your 2-channel setup, unplug one of the two speakers or turn the balance full feft or right. You are now hearing one monopole, just as you would hear it if used in your left or right surround channel. Is the sound diffuse? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 11, 2003 Author Share Posted May 11, 2003 Dean, some people just like entertaining themselves and others. Part of the reason I built this is not because I want to watch the same movie over and over, but because I like to have friends and family over, when they come over I like to show them a fun time. It is not about braggin rights at all for me, but mearly the enjoyment of sharing it with my boys, my family and friends. It makes me feel good when I put a smile on a face. Oh and BTW, outta the blue today, my wife told me I could replace her beloved Sanyo speakers if I wanted. I was speachless that she said that just out of nowhere. She just does not want some big huge builky and fat speaker in here. I am thinking another set of RF7s someday. And when I do, I will definitly be looking through your threads on how to maximize them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Hey Dean! Ya lost? :^) I agree with you almost completely. I do enjoy mutli-channel music very much though. Watching good DVD concerts are just like listening to CD's repeatedly, except you have video too. Multi-channel is about more than just movies. Don't be depressed. Get out your Eagles DVD and listen to track #16. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Hee hee -- I'm better now -- I just needed a good crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 "If it is realistic to expect soundstage (the ability to pinpoint instruments and vocals in space) from our monopole speakers in a 2 channel system, why is it unrealistic to expect proper soundstage in a multichannel environment using monopole speakers, given that both scenarios are employing full range, discrete channels? The answer is, it's not. If the sound engineer knows what he is doing, we will get proper directionality using monopole speakers in a multichannel environment, given proper speaker placement." Keith responded: 'Your hypothesis is incorrect. What you are saying is that two (2) speakers in a 2-channel setup defeats directionalty. What you are describing more accurately describes a diffuse type speaker. Try this experiment for yourself: using your 2-channel setup, unplug one of the two speakers or turn the balance full feft or right. You are now hearing one monopole, just as you would hear it if used in your left or right surround channel. Is the sound diffuse?' No, I am saying the opposite - that 2 speakers CREATE directionality - called "image" or "soundstage". In a 2 channel system, image is created - the ability to pick out the instruments in space. A vocalist that sounds like she is between those two speakers is a desired and created illusion that occurs from those two speakers working together. If you unplug one speaker, away goes that illusion. It is much the same in multichannel. The speakers work in tandem to create a similar "desired illusion" or "soundstage". Pans, sweeps, fly-overs, and so forth are created using all of the speakers in the system together to create that illusion. If an object falls behind you, say 15 degrees off center over your right shoulder, I want it to sound like that object fell in that spot, as opposed to sounding "diffused" against side walls and such. I find that monopoles are more desireable in this regard. I do not see "diffuse" as desireable - I see an accurate re-creation of the soundstage as desireable. I could, however, live with WDST/dipole speakers in the HT, if not for multichannel music. This is where I am very unsatisfied with the concept. I find that an all-monopole system is much more effective here. I don't think music in the rears are any more effective through WDST than using WDST as mains would be. IOW, if 2 channel soundstage illusions can be created through monopoles, multichannel music soundstage illusions can be (and are) created with monopoles as well. If one had the luxury of 2 multichannel systems, one for movies and one for music, the argument could be made that WDST could be used for the movies, and monopoles all around could be used in the music system. Since that's not realistic here, I chose the all monopole, since it seems to give the best overall combined performance in both areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 OK, Dean, your turn "I remember the first time I dropped HBO because I got tired of paying to see reruns. Geepers, how many times can you watch a freaking movie and still really enjoy it? I own about 2 dozen DVD's -- good ones. I might play one once in a blue m00n. :)" I guess this is no different than listening to the same CD over and over again. If movies aren't your thing, than HT isn't your thing. Guess that's just a personal choice. I will say, however, that finding good titles in video is like finding good titles in audio - there's lots of garbage out there - you just have to sift through it to find the good stuff. "I still enjoy going the theater. It's an event. If I want to see a good movie -- I'll go to the movies and watch it on a real big screen." You see, I don't. Yappin' kids, no fridge full of beer, too far to go to the can. Besides, my theater sounds better anyway - these megaplexes built with all that corporate moolah still seem half a$$ed in comparison. Sure they have the gear, but the folks in charge there don't seem to know how to use it. "If I want to see it again later (much later) -- I'll watch it on my $6K 2-channel system. Which I cannot believe if anyone heard -- would actually audibly notice there was not a center channel, or would actually care that there wasn't any rear channel information. My system can make you forget about those things very quickly. I'm not bragging -- I'm dead serious." Which explains why you don't need WDST. "I cannot believe there needs to be such a thing as a "center channel". It's retarded. Sure, if you got a 20 foot long wall -- but for Pete's sake -- three RF-7's along a 10 foot wall -- three freaking feet apart -- with left and right crushed up against the walls!? Most HT's I see are similiar to this. Gear stacked everywhere, and speakers sandwiched anywhere they'll fit. I would love to do a frequency response plot of these HT rooms." There needs to either be a center channel equivalent to the mains, or no center at all, in an ideal system. I find the problem comes when that center is "just a bit off" in timbre - so it becomes noticeable. It should sonically disappear and sound natural, across the front soundstage. The purpose of that center is to anchor dialogue (and other sounds taking place on screen) to the screen. It is THE most important speaker in the system - the point of reference. Up to 75% of cinema sound comes through that center, so that center channel information should be played through the best speaker possible - one equivalent to the mains, or the mains themselves. A well recorded movie will give good center results in "phantom mode", where you tell the processor that you don't have a center, and the center audio is blended into the two mains. I encourage m00n to try this, then try using the RF-7 in the center, and report those differences. If there isn't any difference, m00n can return his RF-7. Let us know how this works, m00n. "Some of you with extensive 2-channel experience, seem to lose a whole complement of chromosomes when discussing or setting up multichannel. What? Do sensical sound acoustic principles vanish when you add speakers to a system? So, what happens when you place drivers, overlapping and covering the same set of frequencies -- close together? What happens when you overload a room with acoustic information -- especially low frequencies? What happens when radiators are placed close to side walls?" The problems can, and do, become more complex. I have found that EQ is helpful - especially bass EQ. Placement also becomes a much bigger experiment - there are that many more variables involved - especially the room itself. I have yet to get to the "artto" stage of my system development - the acoustically tuned listening room - but now that I've got the gear I want, I guess those type of tweaks are the next frontier of system ownership. In the next dwelling, those issues will certainly be addressed. "Hey, I guess it's only HT --" But we like it, like it, yes we do! "m00n, you should have stayed with the RC-7 and saved some money. I ran RC-7's in my 2-channel rig before I had the money for the RF-7's There isn't anything wrong with the RC-7. Not only that, but the crossover and driver configuration were specifically designed to handle dialogue. As far as the other material pumped through the center goes -- when I had the RC-7's -- I sure didn't think they were bass shy or short on dynamics. Remember placement is everything." See above. Again, I encourage m00n to try the RF-7 at center, then try no center with the processor in phantom mode. Then he should report back to us. "If you really want to take this thing to the next level -- get a separate amp to push those mains and center. Don't spend another damn penny on speakers." maybe...but let's see how the current config works. "As far as the dipole/monopole thing goes -- I thought dipole rears were the THX standard? If this is true -- then that means recording engineers have this very much in mind when mixing things up." Hehehe.....I guess that you HAVEN'T been spending much time in the HT area then! As cables bring much accusation of "expensive snake oil", so do the THX certifications. I gave up looking for THX certified stuff long ago - I guess if I'm getting results here without them, I don't really miss that. Also, the "diffuse" approach to surround still does not address the HT system's use for multichannel music - which I contend is best played through monopoles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.