j-malotky Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Got to spend an afternoon in Arttos listening room. He has pics in the architecture thread. What a system, and sound. First off, the room is a masterpiece. The room is not too dead or totally sound sucking sounding like some I have been in and there definitely is no slap or echo what so ever which is nice for its sheer size and lack of furniture. It is a very natural flat sounding room. Sorry - Hard to put this into words. We spend time discussing the room while his rare luxman amps got warmed up. With all the curved walls, the ceiling looks 10 feet tall, I reached up to touch and it is actually a few inches under 8. A real optical illusion. Artto is using a 3 channel stereo setup, using the Klipsch splitter box to create the center signal. I have only heard one maybe to other 3 ch systems in the past and have only been moderately impressed. Arttos system makes me want to set up a 3ch system. In my 2ch system, the imaging sounds to be even with or behind the front wall. The width of the imaging being just a bit wider than the khorns position. In Arttos system the soundstage was much more 3 dimensional, the soundstage was a full 180 degrees from side to side, some sounds were definitely behind the front wall and some come from in-between the speakers and my position. Extremely 3D sounding. Here is an example, I brought over a CD that I have memorized. The recording is mixed with every drum and instrument having its own mic. On Arttos system I could hear where the engineer had the pan set on each instrument. Tony Levins Bass was in the middle. Each of the drums and cymbals were individually spaced from about 25 deg right to 25 deg left. One guitar was about 40 deg right, one about 40 deg left and the 3rd was about 10 deg to the left. I could hear each cymbal crash and decay from its single point in space. Each drum strike and snare decay from a point in space. Like a laser beam to my head. The experience was enlightening. On my system I can hear everything plane as day and hear the imaging but nothing close to this extreme. So how does Artto do this. The laser beam sound effect is mostly the room. I am convinced of that after the visit to Klipsh and being in the chamber. I am also convinced that the sound generation using the 3 CH system adds to this effect by re-enforcing the sound in the center. This way the minute details of the right sterio effects can be beter defined between the Right side and the center speakers. Will I be able to recreate this with My Mc / Klispch setup. Not sure, but I am going to try. I do plan to start working on transforming my system to utilize 3 ch listening. (someday) After I got home from Arttos I listened to my system. The sound quality is good using my McIntoshes, probably becouse my room is a bit more live sounding than Artos. This experience was enlightening to me. Here I go, On to the next level of my Audio quest. Thanks Artto for the nice afternoon at your home. It was a real pleasure. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 JM, I wish that your experience can be downloaded by the rest of us, though you did a great job of putting this into words. BTW, what CD was it with Levin? Did you also listen to vinyl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 Sorry left out that detail. It was California Guitar Trio with tony Levin and Pat Masterotto. Just came out last year. Since seeing CGT open for Crimson in the mid 90's, Ive been a big fan. Tony Levin is always amazing too. JM -edit- Yes we did listen to LP's and SACD's too. Art played a few live jazz LPs recorded in small clubs, sounds like you are right in the club. The SACD was Dark Side OTM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry N. Cruse Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 What is a Klipsch Splitter Box? tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I'm curious about the box too. PK did 3-channel without the box using a set of monoblocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Great post. Wish I coulda been in Indy, too! Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 In ref to the center splitter box, I believe it was a Dope from Hope topic. I may be wrong. Maybe Arto can chime in here and describe. I know PWK also diagramed how to do it off of two amps, He had the R&L speaker on the 8 Ohm taps and ground, and the center running off the 4 ohm tap off each amp. I saw that diagram in the PWK Life Legend book. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Glad you liked what you saw & heard John. Actually, I like the way you put it. Hard to put this into words. IMO thats a good thing. Ive always advocated that when you can start describing the sound with lots of subjective terms, something is wrong. Everyone who has heard this setup tends to describe it by speaking about the musicians & the music. Last year a fellow from Japan (living here in the States at the time) visited my place. Turns out hes a contributing editor for Audio Basic (Japan). He got my system published in the Fall 2002 issue. Currently hes working on an article about the subjective terms audiophiles use to describe their sound. He asked my opinion. I told him that what he said when he was at my place was how I felt about it. He said similar things as John has. Describing the instruments, & sense of space & place. Not any particular component sound. What we listened to: On CD: 2 Tommy Tedesco tunes Lover Man & Lo Yisa Goy from an early Sony CD sampler. 2 guitars, live nightclub. Lower level (70-80Db) Tool, Intolerance Damn LOUD. 102-108Db average On SACD Pink Floyd, DSOTM, Speak to Me thru Time 102-108Db average on loud parts Diana Krall, Lets face the Music and Dance 70-85Db SuperBass2 on Telarc with Ray Brown, John Clayton, & Christian McBride. 70-85Db. Live nightclub recording. On LP Ron Carter, Saguraro, the Piccolo album. Live nightclub recording. 70-85Db Marshall Tucker Band, from the Searching for a Rainbow album, Virginia and Cant you See. LOUD John also brought along an Andy Summers CD (Im going to get this one for sure). Moderate level (90-95Db) & Beethoven 9th, 4th movement, Philips, Sir Colin Davis. Same level on peaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 John is correct. The simple circut is in the Dope From Hope papers. There are several techniques described. Ideally, having independent control of all 3 speakers with individual potentiometers for each speaker is the way to go. I've used very high precision military grade hermatically sealed ones in mine. They take about 15 full turns from completely off to full on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Artto, you listened to Tool at 102db? Man, I had no idea you were a man of such good taste. I've only gone that loud 3 or 4 times in the last two years. It's really not that pleasant. Still, it had to sound tremendous in that room with those big horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Daddydee.....this had nothing to do with Indy. Dean, the Tool stuff was from the 'Undertow' CD. Actually, (IMO) it's a very clean & well mixed recording, especially considering the music genre. Justin Chandler's clanky yet deep slamming bass, and the changing guitar textures are quite amazing when this CD is cranked (in a tolerable environment). Also, keep in mind this room has plenty of "two-stage" sound absorption so the reverberation time doesn't get much longer at higher levels, preventing the room from going into what I call 'acoustic overload'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Dean wrote: "Artto, you listened to Tool at 102db? Man, I had no idea you were a man of such good taste. I've only gone that loud 3 or 4 times in the last two years. It's really not that pleasant." Am I using my SPL meter on the wrong settings, I listen to about 100dbs on average when it's rock on the table, and theres no pain or ear ringing, is the size of the room a factor, what gives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Rob, IMHO it really depends on the recording. I'm sure my room makes somethings more tolerable, especially at higher volume levels. I have an early Billy Joel CD from the initial 14 CD's that were released with the introduction of CD in the US. It is excruciating at 90Db & makes my ears ring after 10 minutes. Also consider that most rock recordings are typically compressed a lot which means the average & loudest levels are not a whole lot different. If the listening room is on the bright side (reverberant), the sound levels can build up in the room. Consequently you might be measuring not only the direct output from the speaker, but also the 'sound build up' in the room which tends to increase until an equilibrium is reached. (remember how fan noise on a slide projector sounds doesn't sound all that loud at first? And then when you turn it off, it seemed like it was loud?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Mark, the 2ph3 circuit in the Dope From Hope newsletter is similar, if not exactly the same as that found in some of the older tube Mc amps. Its not the same thing as the diagram in the PWK book. The 2ph3 circuit is basically a T pad with either one potentiometer on the bridged center channel output, or (preferably) a pot on all 3 outputs. The pots are 25K ohm. The fixed resistors are 27K ½ watt. The wiring diagram shown in the book is an inexpensive work-around. It does not provide any volume control for the center speaker. And it also assumes that all three speakers are the same efficiency & similar frequency response. Optimum level of the center speaker can vary with the program material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Nice thread. Im interested in a diagram of the room, is it possible for any of you to make a simple sketch? I have been thinking myself in a three speakers configuration, currently I will play bit with a Haffler system (if I remember correctly), I bought a nice old box called "quadaptor" by Dynaco which let you connect four speakers to a two channel amplifier. Of course I will not have the same effect, but I expect to feel a realistic ambience with some recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 JM - Thanks for the post. I am in the process of looking for a new home and having a decicated listening is at the top of my list. Artto's room is somthing I'd like to duplicate in my ideal listening room. Artto - Congrats on the room. You muct be very proud of your setup and how it has evolved. Tell me.. which Klipsch circuit did you go with? Do you have any pics of your 2 to 3 channel Bridge box? Your near Chicago? I would very much like to come by and hear your setup. Drinks are on me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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