im_leary Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 edster00, Thank you. Pending the outcome of my tube amplifier audition, I may avail myself of your kind offer. Many Thanks, LEO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im_leary Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Kelly, Thank you for this well considered response. It is quite thought provoking. As it turned out, more by luck than design I assure you, the Rogue and/or the Manleys may be the solution. I will certainly keep everyone apprised of the results. Thanks Again and Best Regards, Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Lance, I don't know (read: haven't listened) the amps you plan to audition. I am sure it'll be an interesting experience. Just one additional point I'd consider is if for the price of those amps (I'm in the dark here) you might not get some vintage piece which, provided it is in excellent condition, might be even 'better'. I don't want to say that modern tube amps aren't good, but perhaps the same amount of money might bring even something superior ? And the violin is indeed a good instrument to test how tiring an amp/speaker combo can be. A very difficult recording in this respect are the Bach Sonatas/Partitas for solo violing played by Nathan Milstein (DG 457 701-2) which on my ss gear were certainly too strident to be enjoyed. After having changed to tubes things have improved considerably. The interesting point is that the recording is still 'bright' but no longer that harsh that it seems to cut off your ears. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Leo, I listen primarily to "classical" music .. solos, string quartets (my favorite), small and large ensembles). Every Wed. I stop by to hear the Walcker / Aeolian-Skinner concert in Methuen, MA. I have several disks of that organ. Immediately after a concert, I often play a selection or two to compare styles. The sound of the organ is the same at home as it in in concert, except my Chorus-IIs only go down to 40 Hz. I use a 3.5 Watt 2A3 SET amplifier. I find I can get sound from a no-feedback tube amp that sounds just a little less electronic than what I can get from an amp that uses feedback. There are no-feedback push-pull and SET tube amps. With the exception of my own pwm amplifier, I've never heard a ss design come close, and I have heard the Aleph-3. If I were to go ss I would go class A or Mac. But no-feedback tube designs are sensitive to what they are connected to and I've found that it is mostly the combination that brings out the coloration. Through my headphones (for which I have a pad that presents a resistive 8 Ohm load to the amp) I can tell little difference between my Tripath pwm implementation (which is remarkably nuetral) and the SET, except that the SET is just a bit cleaner in the top harmonics and sibilances. However, connected to the speakers, the pwm amp continues to sound neutral (it ignores speaker impedance variations) but the SET has an obvious peak centered in the midrange where the Chorus-II impedance goes through the roof. What I've done is add a damping circuit (simple RC for now) to the output stage (on the tube side of the transformer). I no longer notice a peak and still get the SET clean high end. The pwm amp still sounds just a bit warmer. I like the open sound of the SET and the perfect cymbals, violin harmonics, and sibilances. I do trade a little coloration. The reason I mentioned all of that was not to scare you away from tubes but to point out that a SET has something that is worth working to obtain. I suspect that the Belles are a much easier load for a no-feedback tube amp than my Chorus-IIs, and the rewards for finding the right SET even greater. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Dubai, What I meant was the reference line was IMHO better at reproducing subtle nuances better than the heritage. I base those comments on comparisons I've done between my RB-5IIs, Kg4s, and Cornwalls. I've also read comments from Leok and others that would seem to indicate this to be his findings as well. Please correct me if I am wrong Leok I don't mean to put words in your mouth. Heritage has a bigger sound and can fill a room with sound. Reference in my opinion are less colored and have superior imaging. These are not just my opinions... http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/RF7Review4.jpg http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/RF7Review21.jpg - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Wolfram, I personally think that a well designed SET amp with good iron CAN perform great with larger scale pieces, this if in the right setup with VERY efficient horns (with easy load to match)and also a room that will not swallow up the watts. I live in a small apartment as well and play much more challenging material via my Moondogs, then again, my room is literally HALF the size of some of the others that attempt SET, and my MQ DS-025 output iron is renouned for its performance. So in essence, I do agree that one can get excellent reproduction of symphonic works via a quality SET amp if all the parameters are met. I am the last person you need to convince on this issue since I have been pushing SET amplification a long as anyone in the forum. But based on Leo's comments, I really think a SET amp should only be considered after an audition in his home via his system in the room it will be used in. Based on the comments concerning the other amps he has auditioned or owned, it might just not fit the bill; then again, an open mind is always a plus with audio. I tried to wipe away all preconceptions going into it and my first exposure to a 300B SET in 1990 just about tore down any and all left. Having been here during many of the SET debates, you know that I feel a quality SET amp can reveal dynamics from quiet to loud better than far more powerfull PP units, this with almost a spooky-real quality. Used within the right parameters, it is the closest thing I have personally heard to NO AMP at all. Yet, it really does depend on the setup and listening conditions with room interaction coming into play. I think both of us have optimum conditions for SET. SET amplification is not a cure-all nor will it satisfy all comers and conditions. Indeed, I still enjoy use of my PP tube amps daily. On the other hand, 95% of my listening falls to the Moondogs and Cornwalls, this with a whopping 3.5w or so. Still, I will always have a nice PP tube amp in action, right now it happens to be vintage units. In the very near future, there is a good chance I will be making a wholesale change in my gear lineup with only the EICO remaining from the old. Only time will tell on this one, not to mention the unfolding events in the next few months. kh POSTSCRIPT: I too have used Leo's little Waltham Integration unit (6w Tripath Digital amplifier) in my system, actually almost pulling coninuous duty over the last few weeks. Personally, I found it more to my liking with a high quality tube preamp ahead in the chain. It is a surprisingly neutral little amp and avoids 99% of the SS pitfalls, this when used with ultra high sensitive speakers with an easy load such as the Belles or the Cornwalls (mine with the Type B xover and Alnico mid/tweet). On the other hand, I actually find the bass via my MagneQuest shod Moondogs to bbe slightly more realistic and lifelike, this in my setup. In addition, I tend to prefer the midrange reproduction and top end resolution of my SET solution over the Tripath Digital. In my view, it ultimately does not equal the resolution of my Moondogs, this also conferred by my buddy with the Wright Sound 2A3 Monos who turned up for a listen. What IS amazing is that this little amp, with zero heat, in a chassis smaller than a cigar box, can do SO MUCH for so little! To be honest, I preferred it to Ed's Monarchy Audio SM-70 I had for audition as I felt it exhibited even LESS of the SS signature. Two small comments I have noticed after extended listening are a slight reduction in dynamics compared to the Moondogs as well as perhaps a bit less "pace" or rhythmic snap. This might just be the interaction with the 6SN7 pre I have but I prefer the other qualities that combination brings to the table, thus making it worth it. I would be interested to see Leok's comments here too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 tbabb, Yes to the heritage room filling. The RF-7s are more a big near-field monitor. From 2KHz up they are probably the cleanest thing I've heard. Lower mid is soft, bass is a little slow, but goes very low and is powerful if placed in a corner. The mid-tweeter crossover is a 3-way reality and Leo doesn't sem to object to it. Overall, from top to bottom, I think Heritage speakers have more uniform dynamic performance .. everything gets as louder as everything else. With the RF-7s, the horns seem to be more dynamic, esp in the lower midrange, than the cones. Cellos and pianos suffer. RF-7s do upper violin very well, but some of the woody violin body sound is lost. On my Chorus-IIs, the whole violin is there, but the crossover does a Picasso job on the upper harmonics. For violin sometimes I prefer th RF-7 and sometimes the Chorus. mobile, Yes on the P6D. Everything is a little harder .. more solid with the SET (which I now have damped to my satisfaction). I do trust the P6D for overall neutrality .. mostly because I know how it works and also because it's more often right than wrong. But it isn't the last word in detail. For that the 2A3 SET has an easy lead. The residual ss signature of the P6D is probably its op-amp input (feedback). I wish I could do something about that. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Leo, " Is anyone using a Monarchy SM-70 or a Pass Aleph?" I just picked up a used SM-70 a couple of weeks back for my La Scalas. It is a very nice amp. Unbelievable when I consider I bought it for $350. I've talked with Monarchy and they have a new version of the SM-70 Pro which is supposed to be even better yet. My current Monarchy is probably going to end up powering my center channel and a new SM-70 Pro will do L/R. Monarchy does 30% off the prices on their site for direct sales btw. Edit: Forgot to mention another little integrated amp that worked well with my La Scalas.. the McCormack Micro Integrated drive. Around 5ish W/ch but it drove them quite well. It also doubles as a good line stage and a great headphone amp. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 im_leary, enough I think has been said regarding "tube" amps and their qualities here. I would offer the opinion that a SET tube amp is in an different category than the others, and few, if any, find good homes due to their constraints. Constraints that with Belles you are happily within compliance. I would make two recommendations: 1) update your crossover to a type A, which is IMHO highly recommended for the Belles, and 2) take someone up on auditioning a real live SET, of good quality. I find 8 watts more than sufficient to reproduce Mahler, Holtz, the whole dynamic lot of them quite well and to reproduce Debussy, Tchaikovsky and more harmonically challenging music with a 3D clarity that I have not seen in SS amps. How do you judge a good SET amp? My rule of thumb is it should be heavy enough make you grunt when you pick it up. "Pounds per watt" is what you are shooting for, not "watts per pound". Finally, be suspicious of anyone trying to sell you 100+ watt amps to create the realism you seek. My guess is that 100% of them will be unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Randy, nicely compiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Do tell Kelly. DRD 2a3 or 45? You got something for sale? - tb >In the very near future, there is a good chance I will be making a wholesale change in my gear lineup with only the EICO remaining from the old. Only time will tell on this one, not to mention the unfolding events in the next few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Heh... Actually, I have had several offers out of the blue on my MagneQuest Moondogs, these from webpages I have left online, one approaching the "hell, for that you should sell it" price territory all of which got me thinking on what I could do that would be interesting for that amount of ducats. Or something. Of course, the Moondogs are still sitting here and I would be remiss if I didnt say I am almost completely attached to them in a sentimental way, much like an old classic car you love that takes the off camber turn with aplomb and just feels so right... Except it's an amp with no reverse. Jeff and I were talking about a variation on this SET we have been bantering about. Depends on if I can get Mike Lafevre to deal some $$$$ iron. Cobalt is a possibility but I am not so sure... The DRD solution with tube rectification was an option but I wanted to try something that didnt move off Ron or anybody else's shelf. This next SET might be completely custom with some variations and additions not seen in too many off the shelf products. I am not totally sold on cobalt parafeed yet either as there is something really musical and right about a good traditional air-gapped trans in the right circuit, again this musically speaking. Many of my favorite SET amps that sound the most musically natural feature simple, traditional, well-done air-gapped outputs. To be honest, my Moondogs sound very nice, and never "wrong" or overly analytical, putting detail in front of the music. They actually have the most heft and low end weight of any SET amp I have heard, this combined with as smooth a treble as one would hope for. I thought I would never sell them in some ways but... There is a chance I might go with a custom SET of some sort combined with a 2A3 PP and stop here for quite awhile, leaving me with Eico, 2A3 Push Pull, and thy custom SET of some sort (discussions are always going on either within my skull or with certain froot compatriots). Who knows... I thought I was all SET for the most part, when suddenly the ox cart gets overturned leaving me with apples galore, all at the end of a listless period of audio gear apathy... And then there's Dean... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Yes. Your right... Dean does not have this problem. He is just going to try them all. Sacrificing the kids college funds in the process. There is always the military right Dean? ;-) - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 That was kind of brutal, especially since I've probably spent overall less than most here. I don't think I've lost money on a transaction yet, and my 'upgrades' have been incrementally speaking, rather painless to the budget. I also think my system is actually rather modest. I say if he started with a 7100 and really liked it, and is trying to "recapture" what he had, doesn't like the inherent colorations associated with the tube gear he has heard -- then I say his best course of action is to find another 7100, or some combination that brings him closer to the sonic signature he wants. This of course renders our opinions regarding tube gear and "accuracy" pretty much useless to him. He already knows what he likes, and there is not much sense in us muddying the waters for him. I do believe that "accuracy" is subjective, and I don't think tube gear "colors" the picture anymore or less than solid scrape. What is "accurate" is what every individual's brain/ear mechanism says it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Really I thought that was hitting below the belt and mostly sounded like jealousy to me. I know for a fact being one of old Deano's suppliers that he has always recouped most if not all his investment. He keeps his audio money completely separate from his other finances this is why every time you see him make a change he sells what he has and goes without while waiting for new toys to arrive. I also love trying out everything under the sun and will just keep going until I have I basically do the same thing sell something to buy something ! I probably have 3K invested in all my gear and could setup about 4 full systems. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Well, I did have my kids downtown once doing the Lord of the Dance thing on a corner. They were tapping away while I played Blind Guy with my sunglasses and cane -- holding out my ball cap out taking donations. The kids were pretty excited because they thought they were finally going to get to eat something. The thing was, I found a great deal on a pair of Telefunken 12AX7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Lighted up folks... it was a Joke. Just poking a bit of fun. - tb Note: I do wish I had the time to try half of what Dean has tried though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I knew that -- but it's more fun to pretend someone is being anal, that way I can be anal too and get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im_leary Posted August 17, 2003 Author Share Posted August 17, 2003 Folks, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Leok, Wolfram, and especially kh (Kelly?) for much thought provoking information. I believe, with their collective help, I have found several equally effective solutions. First, several points I have apparently not clarified adequately: To my knowledge, I have never heard an MC-7100 drive a set of Belles. It did drive my old K-horns, in my old house, in a room that was perfectly suited to the K-horns. In my new home, however, the only Klipsch speaker I tried was the CF-4 with dismal results. Since then, I have heard other McIntosh amps drive Belles in the dealers listening rooms. Perhaps the acoustics, music, or other components were wrong, but these amplifiers did not sound like the system I had, nor the one I was searching for. They definitely did not sound like my old MC-7100, running my old K-horns, in my old home. I suppose I was hoping to have someone tell me that the MC-7100 was unique in sound quality among the other McIntosh amplifiers. Instead, I heard many others tell me that it was simply representative of that era. I am not predisposed to dismissing tube technology. I am, however, dismissive of the tube amplifiers that I HAVE HEARD, prior to this past Friday. After listening to a number of Audio Research, Marantz and McIntosh tube amplifiers I was left with an unshakable mindset: these units are grossly over-priced, rated, and hyped. In the case of each and every one of THESE units, I could not find a single one that could not be surpassed, in almost every measure, by a cheaper and better solid-state amplifier (like a used Ayre V-3, which I recently heard in New York). The used Ayre cost only $1,750. The tube-dogs averaged $5,000 to $7,500. What would you think? I would like to thank Leok, Wolfram, and Kelly again. The things I have learned in the past two days have been a revelation. Specifically, I listened to a pair of Manley Snappers (using the balanced inputs), a pair of Manley MAHIs (in Triode and UL mode), and a pair of Joule-Electra Stargates, driving a pair of Belles, with MY C-35. What I learned is that any of these three amplifiers will do quite nicely. All three are beautifully clear, colorless, and more than adequately powerful. A pair of Belles never had it so good. I have also put to rest any doubts that the C-35 is up to the job. It worked like a trooper; both balanced and single-ended. Now, the only problem is deciding which one will do it best Very best regards to all, Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Lance, I feel really honored being mentioned together with the other two esteemed forum members. It sounds that you see some light at the dark end of the tunnel. So good luck deciding and please keep us informed how things develop. And I shall not refer to any SET option, no, no, no.....(LOL) Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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