Amplifier for my Belles

[im_leary]

Folks,

I am in need of some help. The problem, in short, is that I am in need of an amplifier to fit between my McIntosh C-35 and my new Belles. The most exasperating part of my search has been the opinions of the pundits, who can not view the problem from my perspective that of a CLASSICAL MUSIC aficionado. I do not own, nor do I have any interest in, music other than classical (early Baroque through Romantic period).

It seems that in the past, I have made some rather poor choices based on the opinions of the aforementioned self-professed boffins. The worst of which was the purchase of a pair of B&W Nautilus 801s. It seems that I found them to be inappropriate for Liszt, but (according to my daughter) work quite well for LL Cool J. The monetary loss was in excess of $2,500. And now, the dealer who sold me the Belles is quite adamant that an Audio Research VT-100 is the only amplifier that can possibly do justice to the Belles. ENOUGH!!

So here I am beseeching this august body for their collective wisdom. In short, the question is, Which amplifier(s) will best drive the Belles to their maximum potential, without adding ANYTHING WHATSOEVER (or, as little as possible) to the musical score?

PS: The CD player is an Oracle CD-1500.

[damonrpayne]

I am not a huge 2-channel guy, but I have been hearing very good things about BAT tube amplifiers for classical/live performance style music. A local retailer sells BAT and recommends them to go along with the Avant Garde horn speakers, which I suppose in some way could be a sign they could go well with Klipsch heritage speakers. I'm sure its worth a listen if you can find a retailer.

[Chris Robinson]

Leo,

You might want to message LeoK on this one ... He listens to very similar music (although not exclusively) and his ears are fantastic.

He is currently using some tricked out tube gear, but he'd give you some good suggestions on how to go. I would think a McIntosh 240 would be swell but it would be pretty dear in the price department. You could resell it for what you paid, though.

You might ask him about his P6D ... it is a very low distortion solid state amp (at normal driving levels) and is the size of a Walkman. The sound is very close to tubes and might mate up well with your McIntosh. It might be worth checking out.

[Chris Robinson]

Oops, I thought the C-35 was a tube pre- ... Scratch the 240 idea.

I think staying with McIntosh would be good. I used to have a MC-2105 which I loved, but at 100 WPC it was overkill for my Cornwalls. The 2105, however, is a very neutral amp (no coloration) and certainly has the guts to drive transient-laden classical music.

Between the 2105's blue meters, and the Belles, you just might have the most beautiful looking system ever assembled!

[leok]

im_leary,

I think I can provide you with information that will help. This evening or Sat. I'll add an additional post (I'm at work now). There are tradeoffs here that we have to review.

leok

[mobile homeless]

Are you leary of tube gear? I personally love classical of that period with quality tube amps over any other by far, especially 99.9% of the solid state choices. Your listening habits, room, and other variables will be all important in your search as well as your taste in sound.

What are the amps you have had or heard that you liked in the past, regardless of equipment? Actually, I have never been a huge fan of Audio Research tube amps but some do like their qualities. What is a definite is the Belles will open up your selection to options you did not have with the B&W.

kh

ps- btw, Leo, I dropped you a mail at an old address I had from you way back. Not sure if you got it - Drop me a mail.

[im_leary]

Kind Folks,

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thank you for the many replies. In answer to the many questions regarding what I have tried, here is a summary:

In the beginning actually, when I left the military some 35 years ago, I had quite a nice system indeed. I dont recall all of the details, but the entire system was centered about a Sony TA-2000 preamp, Sony TA-3200F amplifier, a pair of K-horns, and a Cornwall center channel (yes, I ran afoul of the center channel myth). At the time I was quite pleased with this system. With a large basement room (that had great corner locations for the K-horns), this system gave me acceptable clarity and a great soundstage. It sounded all the world like forth row, center at the Met. The amp was not as quiet as it could have been, but hey it was good for1970.

Later, in the mid 80s, the TA-3200F (and the Cornwall) gave up the ghost. I perceived this turn of events a perfect opportunity to upgrade. Instead, I purchased a McIntosh C-27, MC-2120, and a Marantz 20B tuner. At any rate, the tuner turned out to be quite decent. I should have had the TA-3200F repaired and kept both it and the TA-2000.

In very short order I exhausted all patience with the C-27 (this had to be McIntoshs worst hour) and traded it for a C-35. If I recall correctly, the McIntosh dealer gave me only $100 for it. The C-35 made a significant improvement in the transients (cross-talk, hum, pop, etc.) but the MC-2120 simply did not have the power to provide any presence, whatsoever. A year or so after I purchased the C-35, I found an MC-7100 for a reasonable (by McIntosh standards) price. At that time, McIntosh amplifiers were required to have "big-blue-meters". The MC-7100 may have been non-McIntosh in appearance, but WOW, could it make the K-horns talk. This system could produce clean, uncolored, Wagner Meistersinger (at Met volume levels), without any unwelcome tonal changes. Life was good again until I moved to a new home.

Now, because of space constraints and adherence to the fundamental laws of physics, I was forced to part with the Klipschorns. This is when the dark-times began. I replaced the K-horns with a pair of CF-4s. As it turned out, my children loved them. I, on the other hand, was convinced that Aerosmith would destroy my stereo system. Needless to say, the local high-end salesmen were convinced that the problem lay with my amplifier. So, I traded the trusty MC-7100 for an MC-300. This made things MUCH louder, but not much clearer. The children were happy, but the fact is the CF-4s are not the equal of the K-horns.

This was the beginning of a quest for something comparable to what I had enjoyed in the past. I have tried B&Ws (from CDMs to Nautilus 801s), Spica TC-50s (WHAT A PAIN), ProAc Studio 125s (the best cone-speaker I have tried), and the Belles (the best I have heard, which will still fit into my house). I have also listened to Magnepans, Martin Logans, and a set of vintage KLHs. The large Magnepans sound rather nice, but I have no need for additional wall partitions in my home. The Martin Logans and the KLHs (regardless of the advertising hype) are far too directional. At the suggestion of the local high-end salesperson, the last amplifier I purchased was a Krell FPB-200. Not quite as powerful as the MC-300, but with a decidedly fuzzy mid-range. The salesmen called the tone quality voluptuous. Filled with delight it may be, but its music that I want.

Now, the same salesman wants to sell me an Audio Research VT-100 Mk III. It seems (according to him) that my problem is being caused by a chronic lack of tubes. He came to this conclusion as he was demonstrating the clarity to me with a Pink Floyd demo CD.

So that is my trial. Here, twelve years later (albeit, under different conditions and some $18,000 wasted), I am trying to recapture what I had.

[garymd]

Leo,

Maybe if you let us know in what general area you live, a member or two (or more if you are lucky) could help by auditioning their tube amps with your system. Its been done more than once around here. Just a suggestion.

[leok]

Leo,

What about the MC-7100 and the Belles? If that combination worked before (using the KHorns instead of the Belles) why wouldn't it work now? (I know you don't have your MC-7100 but one might be available and the idea might be a good starting point)

leok

[im_leary]

That is a kind offer. First, however, I would like to consider everything the forum might suggest. Point is I am not convinced that a tube amplifier is the best technology for this application. My dealer has allowed me to bring the VT-100 Mk III to my home. I admit that it does sound better than the Krell. However, it also has a "warmth" that I do not like. This may be acceptable with jazz, rock, and country but not at all acceptable with classical music. Regardless, I find it totally unacceptable in an amplifier that retails for $6,000.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

It is my experience that this phenomenon is not unique to Audio Research tube amplifiers, but systemic to the breed. After evaluating everything I have heard (from live auditions of the amplifiers) to date, I am considering the Monarchy SM-70, the Pass Aleph 5, and the Ayre Acoustics V-3. All of the best sounds I have heard to date seem to be coming out of these state-of-the-art solid-state amplifiers. Please note that I would much rather spend ~ $2,000 for a wonder-tube amp, than $3,000 to $4,000 for a Pass or an Ayre. Fact is, if anyone can show me a tube amp that is not plagued with a pallet of colors when rendering Mozart and Shuman, I will be delighted to consider it Please remember when you ponder this conundrum; we are speaking CLASSICAL music on Klipsch Belles here. The goal is the proper size amplifier (with the Belles sensitivity of 103 db, why on earth does one need 300 watts per channel) and NO TONE COLOR.

Does anyone have any experience with the Aragon 8002?

[im_leary]

Leok,

Another MC-7100 is a great idea... if I can find another good one. Problem is, everyone else seems to have realized that blue meters do not make a terrific amplifier. To-date, I have not been able to find one that doesnt look like it has spent the last ten years doing wedding DJ service.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Besides, the new solid-state units seem to have so much promise. Is anyone using a Monarchy SM-70 or a Pass Aleph?

[garymd]

Leo,

I agree with you that warmth is not always good. My scott is not what I would call warm but very detailed and somewhat bright. My macs are very warm and have tons of headroom but do not have the same level of detail as the scott. Maybe a good SET amp would hit the spot for you. You need to audition a few alternatives which is not always an easy proposition.

[Cut-Throat]

I have Belles and am currently driving them with a pair of Moondogs - 2.5 watts per channel. - My next upgrade will probably be a pair of 45 SET Monoblocks at 1.75 watts per channel.

If I were you, I'd get a pair of Welborne Labs SET amps or George Wright SET amps. - 2 or 3 watts per channel is all you need!

[No Disc]

Leo,

Interesting that you are put off by tube ampilification because of their "warmth" character.

The Klipsch heritage speakers (Belle included) are not known for their uncolored character.

The newer Klipsch reference series are a more accurate speaker and probably better suited for "delicate" classical music then the Klipsch heritage counterparts.

I would think twice before basing your entire setup on the Belles. While they are a wonderful speaker, they might not be the best suited for your desired goal.

Look into the Klispch RF series and listen to a pair that have been broken in and are not fresh out of the box. Get feedback from Leok and Dean as they both have them and also the heritage line.

- Tim

[dubai2000]

Tim,

I am not so sure that the heritage speakers aren't suited to classical music. I happen to listen to classical music too (from Bach to the 20th century) and I find the 'clarity' of my Khorns just right for that kind of music. I remember my pre-Klipsch days when everybody told me that Klipsch speakers (heritage line) 'colour' the music to such an extend that you cannot listen to let's say a solo violin because one hardly recognizes it. Needless to say I think this is absolute b***sh**t. When the Khorns came, my previous speakers (Quad ESL 63) went - and though a totally different animal I wouldn't have been happy with the Klipsch had they been like I was being told.

Leo,

I know that listening to music is a very personal/subjective matter but for me the combination of Mc ss gear and Khorns didn't really work (in the long run). With my Quads I had a C29/MC2105 combo. It was indeed 'clean/clear', powerful and quite transparent. When getting the Khorns I eventually couldn't listen to this combo anymore for a long time as it caused listening fatigue. Not straight away, but I was noticing something 'wrong' (today I'd call it not organic) which seemed to be getting more pronounced as time went by. I had also tried a more modern Mc poweramp which was perhaps clearer than the 2105, but tonally even more unsuitable. To make a long story short: I ended up with tube gear simply because I think they combine better with heritage speakers. Depending on budget I'd go for something like the MC-240 mentioned above (on the MC-30 I cannot comment yet as they are still 'on the road' LOL) or a Marantz 8B. Especially the latter needs the right tubes not to sound 'thick' (though I have difficulties in applying this word to high quality tube gear anyway), but I have heard it with different preamps (like the 240) and I think you should try and find someone where you can audition it. If that is not possible I should think that the financial risk in buying such equipment is relatively low as they seem to keep (or sometimes even increase) their resale value. When considering the Marantz you could also look for the modern reissue which (according to friend) sounds just like his vintage one.

Just my thoughts.

Wolfram

[edster00]

im_leary,

Welcome to the BB!

Since you mentioned the Monarchy SM-70, I can tell you that I really like that little amp. While I am currently hooked on SET monoblocks I previously used both a single Monarchy SM-70 and later two SM-70s monoblocked driving Cornwalls, Belles and K-horns. IMHO SM-70s are about the best "bang for the buck" amps available. I would suggest you call C.C.Poon, owner of Monarchy Audio, he is a very knowledgeable fellow and can answer any questions you may have about his gear. You can find used Monarchys periodically on AudiogoN.

I sold one of my Monarchys a year or so ago, but I will always keep one here as a backup for my tube amps (or in a 2nd two channel system). I will probably have my SM-70 modified with the "Pro" version parts sometime in the future.

I would be happy to send my Monarchy to you for an audition if you like.

Edit:

I got to thinking about the "bang for the buck" statement I made...before I get slammed I'll qualify my statement to exclude non-vintage amps, SS or tube!

[mobile homeless]

Note: I am a bit surprised concerning Tims comments regarding the Belles. I dont know if I agree with this either.

After reading your comments and experiences, I am going to suggest that SET amplification is probably not for you although, in my view, I think you might give it a try if anyone is in your area. The best SET amps do have a clarity and see-through quality that is all their own but ultimately do their best work with more intimate music that is not extremely dense with instrumentation. This is not to say it does not work with densely scored material at all, but I would not rank it as THE AMP choice for someone that is a Wagner or Mahler fanatic. Although I would not put it first choice, I do believe everyone should at least HEAR what a quality SET amp can do in the right setup. Still, I dont think it's your answer.

One point you bring up makes me reconsider even recommending tubes to you at all. This is the dislike of warmth creeping into the presentation and then stating that the Audio Research exhibited this very problem. Well, if it's one thing I wouldnt use to categorize Audio Research tube amp sound, it's Warmth, which leads me to believe that you might be very sensitive to this area, thereby making some tube amp suggestions difficult.

I will say that I heard a tube amp a few years back that was extremely transparent and almost clinically detailed but not sterile in the true sense of the word. It was the Joule Electra Stargate Monoblocks which utilize the Russian 6C33CB tubes in Parallel Single-ended putting out about 30w or so. This amp is very uncolored and might impress like it has many other. I heard it with 95dB Silverline Sonatas and it was almost scalpel-like and very fast. There are several reviews of this amp online. I'll post some links.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0901/stargate.htm

I did a review of the Monarchy Audio SM-70 that is actually in the 2-Channel archives. I thought it was an excellent amp for the money, at the time being one of the better solid state amps I have had with my Cornwall, at least in the price category. Still, if going for the ultimate, I think there ARE better amps out there but I will say this had some nice sound. How they do so much for so little and stay in business is a wonder.

Like Leo, I do think that solid state amps have more problems in the very low watt territory where something like the Belles will run you a majority of the time. I just dont think solid state conveys the emotion and life of live instruments to the level of good tubes but I do know that some people seem to really disagree here. On the other hand, most of them are NOT using Klipsch Heritage, a line that I personally think comes into its own via tube amplification.

I will consider the options some more

kh

[dubai2000]

Kelly,

I respect your views and you are probably right in saying that for Leo SET (or even tube amps altogether) might not be the path to follow, BUT why should a Wagner opera or a Mahler symphony not profit from a good SET amp? I have been listening to both lately (parts of 'the Ring' and Mahler's eighth symphony) and to my ears those see-through qualities of SET amps are also a joy when attempting to reproduce such large scale pieces ( I mean the emotional impact of such pieces does come through very nicely indeed!). Granted, I live in an apartment so there are limits to loudness that does not collide with neighbours, but from what I have been told the neighbours sitting in the garden below could follow the music very easily........although all my windows and balcony door were closed (LOL).

Wolfram

[im_leary]

Wolfram,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I appreciate the logic in your recommendation. It seems to make perfect sense that a large cone (with the attached dome and coil) simply cannot accelerate as quickly as the horn driver, not to mention the fact that the operating displacement of a horn driver is but a fraction of that of the cone-type speaker. The simple physics of the matter are: Horns can produce high sound pressure levels with minimal distortion, provided that the horns are well designed. I think that we can all agree that Klipschs horn speakers are very well designed, indeed. This, I feel, is a reasonable explanation as to why the CF-4 (and all of the RF series) simply do not reproduce the rapidly changing, but distinctly separate, notes of many classical scores.

Case in point: Listen carefully to the first movement of Beethovens Concerto in D for violin. If you have a recording that features an accomplished violinist, such as Itzhak Perlman, you will hear that the introduction to the solo, although it sounds quite simple and elegant, is actually VERY complicated. If you listen to a live performance you will be impressed by the fact that Perlman nails every single note perfectly and SEPARATELY. Beethoven did not intend to have the entire passage slurred together! In a live performance, with Perlman playing, it is easy to hear each and every note, even though they are being done very rapidly. Now listen to the same music through a GOOD horn speaker, and again through a GOOD cone speaker. If you have ever tried this I have made my point. The cone simply has too much mass. The cone simply cannot change direction remotely as quickly as the horn driver.

Now back to amplifiers I am happy to say that I have had an offer to host an in-home audition of several highly rated tube amplifiers. I have been offered the use of a Rogue Eighty-Eight Magnum power amplifier and a pair of Manley MAHIs. Now we will see hear that is, what some really good tube stuff can do.

Thanks Again,

Lance

[NOSValves]

Kelly,

Very fair and well rounded recommendation there !

Craig