jt1stcav Posted October 4, 2003 Author Share Posted October 4, 2003 Thank you, everyone, for your honest replies and suggestions concerning the Zen triode amp. It's what I feared most, that any SET amp of low wattage wouldn't fulfill my needs as far as playback at higher levels is concerned. You must understand that I don't always play my favorite music as loud as I described (usually in the 60 to 90dB range at most), but I do like having the option to do so when I have the house all to myself! I must admit that my Mac barely gets warm at these higher levels, and the sound isn't nearly as harsh and stringent as some other transistor amps of lesser quality. Like some of you have mentioned, I shouldn't dismiss PP amps either, i.e. the newer (used) models from JoLida or Antique Sound Labs, or vintage integrated amps from Fisher, Pilot, or Heathkit, etc. I am on a very tight budget at this time, and $500 is about as much as I can spend right now, leaving me few options. Or like Dean just mentioned, buy myself a high quality tube preamp (the AMC I had over a year ago was not of this calibre; it's fit and finish and quality of construction was found extremely wanting). Which brings up another point...with my SS McIntosh driving my Cornwalls, will a used high-end tube preamp (i.e. Counterpoint, Threshold, Audio Research, conrad-johnson, etc.) really add rich dynamics and bloom to my music, and make a significant difference? Or is it just a compromise for lack of a vacuum tube amplifier? What if I changed out my CD player to one with a tube output stage, such as the Ajoe Tjoeb or the JoLida JD 100? Or would the greatest performance still be achieved by replacing the MC250 for a high-end PP tube amp? Comments are certainly welcome at this point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 here's another alternative..... the digital amps that are based upon the tripath chips..... bel canto, ICE, and Tact have high buck options....carver professional ZR amps are a much lower cost option..... AND most importantly - they are receiving rave reviews!!!!! here is a quote: "I own a ZR 1000 amp, and after owning a long line of exceptional audio toys, can say with some authority, that to these ears and those of the other audiophool owners I personally know, these amps are the best we have ever heard at any price, in any implemenatation, I kid you not." even sony and panasonic have introduced some all in one players using the same type of technology...(but not the tripath chip) here are a bunch of links to discussions concerning these new amps and the associated technology..... http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=2297 http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=General&action=display&num=1064370157 http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=4782 http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/26274.html http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=4907 http://tripath.com/ and here is the carver website... http://www.carverpro.com/2003/home by the way.... even though my signature says a carver ZR1000 for my amp...it hasn't arrived yet... should be here next week!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 I would say, drop that five bucks or so into vintage integrated to get a taste of PP. There are many options that are risk-free resale-wise. Don't sell your Mc. I'm a packrat by nature, but once it's gone you'll never get it back. There are a ton of options at 20-50W of PP tube power. Others on the board have much more direct experience than I. Just try something. Get a taste and go from there. I for one would enjoy hearing your reactions. Regards, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Jim, Adding a tubed preamp to your system will make a dramatic improvement in your sound. With $500, there is not a single thing you can do that will add greater joy to your listening experience. I highly recommend, and strongly urge you to make a play on the same 6SN7 based preamp I just picked up off of eBay. The guy can build, and even with shipping -- will leave you enough money left over for a nice set of Sylvania NOS 6SN7's. It is simply the best deal in audio as far as preamps go. Buy it, if you don't like it...huh...Jeff will buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 A nice Scott 299 or Eico is an option, however -- it will be tough to pick up a nice one, and get the thing up to speed for $500. Deals are out there, but you might have to be patient. Heck, maybe Craig has something. Craig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Another option. Build a Seduction phono stage and a Foreplay preamp from Bottlehead todrive your Mac. When you can afford an 8 to 15 watt set you will already have the ground work. I want to build some but I have shot my electronics budget until I sell some fishing or NASCAR stuff and an amp or two. I'll have a 299c and probably an Eico HF-81 for sale soon. Maybe you would like to consider one of them. The 299c will be about $200+ frt and whatever NOS Valves needs to rebuild it and a set of good 7591s. On the Eico I have replaced the 4 0.1uf red caps with Sangamos, resoldered all the joints and repainted/clearcoated the panels black on the sides and Yamaha blue grey metalic on the front.(That was the closest I could find to stock.) The brass has been polished and clearcoated. A previous owner had repainted it in a poor quality black paintjob, including the front panel. Yuck! With a new set of EH EL-84s it is sounding very nice with the Heresies. I will need about $300 with frt and the new tubes. Also if you want to play with set for not a lot of money, I have sweet little AMD EL-84 SET integrated amp(no mag phono) for $135 +frt. It has nice Japanese iron and would make a great project amp. Sounds nice on my Khorns for a low power set. It'll move the air in the room(13x21 with an open hall and stairway) to 90db. How much power is that LeoK? 1/10 Watt? If you (or anyone) have any interested in these amps please email me at blackwatch26@yahoo.com or rjw7798@aol.com Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Jim, I just stumbled onto this thread and of course I'll have to throw in my 2 cents. I listened to the corns with similiar SETs you are considering. It won't work for you. You'll do much better with a 299 or the like. A NOSValves rebuild on a 299b will give you all you want plus some. Mine is truly amazing to my ears as everyone is sick of me saying. But it's true. The SETs didn't give me that real sounding pluck, twang or thump that you can feel which I have to have with some music. Our speakers are pretty much identical (1 year apart with no mods). I wish you were close enough to come take a listen to better understand what I mean. Good luck. - Gary Note: This is just my humble opinion as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 5, 2003 Author Share Posted October 5, 2003 Russ, I have a friend in Singapore (who I introduced to the Magnepan MGLR1 planars like the ones I had) who built Tripath kits modeled after a Bel Canto design, and he swears by it! I think he set up a website devoted to his experiences with it...I'll have to look it up again and reread it...very promising technology. Ben, I agree, a 299C rebuilt by Craig (not Mapleshade...they want too much) would be a sweet deal. And just like my Cornwalls, I'll never sell my McIntosh! If I do purchase a PP amp someday, I'll always find another use for the Mac...same as if I'll ever buy Klipschorns; I'll find a use for my Cornwalls, in a second bedroom system perhaps. Dean, I must have missed your thread about purchasing a new tube preamp. When did this happen? What make and model is it? Point me in the direction of your thread or posts so I can read up on this 6SN7 based preamp that you seem to enjoy so much. Maybe this is the answer to my need for valves (and I get to keep my Mac)...a pleasant alternative! Rick, I may just get in touch with you once I get my funds together. It'd be great to purchase from another forum member instead of a perfect stranger. Gary, it seems your invitation still stands...if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'd like to spend some time auditioning your system. I'll bring the 6-pack...naw, make it a keg and it's party time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vital Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 DeanG, Who was this person and what preamp is it? I would like to get a hold of something like this myself. I have been trying to figure out what to do next, buy more speakers or get better sound out of my two front RF-7s. I think a good preamp is what I need now then I'll work on the rest of my HT speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 It's a nifty 6SN7 line stage made in Hong Kong. It's point to point wired, uses TUBE rectification, and has a lot going for it considering the ducats involved, which is anywhere from $230 to $250 depending on how the auctions are going. There is usually one on ebay until he gets behind and removes it. I dont see one up at the moment but keep a lookout. Here is a sample auction from one of the last units that sold for $230. 6SN7 Line Stage - Ebay Auction As for the question above, it's amazing how much advice you can get from all levels of experience. You get the ones that trust the specs as the final arbitar, the ones that that have never heard a single-ended triode amplifier, but "know" it wont work due to said specs, the ones that have heard a single sample, and draw across-the-board conclusions, the ones that always recommend SET, and the ones that have sampled many SET and push-pull varieties. Interestingly enough, in this forum, they all receive about equal weight, which has its good and bad points. I will add my opinion in the mix. I tend to be a bit more forgiving of the Zen than my cohort Jean-Francois, but will side with the contingent that thinks the Decware Zen amp is just not enough for the Cornwalls. Another thing to remember is the DECWARE ZEN is NOT a true single-Ended Triode amp. It is a pentode tube WIRED in triode and run in a single-ended fashion. The Svetlana SV-83 is not a TRIODE tube like the 2A3, 300B, 45, etc. Of the above, Jeff gives about the best advice concerning SET amplification. You really do get what you pay for and what you are really paying for in a quality SET amplifier are the OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS. His point should be remembered if EVER considering a foray into SET as your main amp. GOOD OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS ARE NOT CHEAP AND ARE IMPORTANT TO GET THE MOST FROM THE SINGLE ENDED TRIODE TOPOLOGY. In my view, the Wright Sound 2A3 3.5 Monoblocks are about the best deal in lower cost SET amps but will STILL not go the full distance in the bottom with certain types of music. On the other hand, the Wright Sound 3.5 are some GREAT amps. What would I do ultimately? I personally will always have two systems, both 2 Channel. One revolves around the best single-ended triode amplifier I can obtain (mated with excellent tube Octal pre) and the other will consist of a quality push-pull tube amp, the selection depending on mood and partnering gear. Right now, I find the sweet spot lies in a GREAT EL-84 vintage push-pull amp like the EICO and my Welborne 2A3 Moondogs. Substitute a Scott 299, Fisher X101 (with tube rectification), and others. For those a bit more in the "power is the answer" camp, there is a pair of EICO HF-60 Monoblocks up for auction on Audiogon (16hrs to go) with the Acrosound TO-330 transformers. These amps will use EL-34, 6550, KT-88, etc. In my view, an optimized version of this amp would about liquidate the need for any modern Push-pull alternatives, and at a fraction of the price. The ULTIMATE answer here concerning amplification is that THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER. I have not found one type of amplifier that fills all my needs nor meets all the criteria quality-wise. The high quality single-ended triode 2A3 amplifier mated with a top notch tube preamp has come the closest to sonic nirvana. But in the kick out the total jams mode, the quality vintage push-pull fills the gap. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 minn male 42, Thanks for the links about Sony's digital amps. It will be interesting indeed to see if digital replaces solid state in the normal world. Tube amps will probably hold on to their extremely small but dedicated following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Hi Jim, It looks like I am a day late (as usual), but I agree with the advice you have been given about the ZEN amps. A couple of years ago I purchased a pair of the SV83M Signature monoblocks to drive a pair of Cornwalls. I thought they were the best sounding amps I had heard at that time. I did return them at the end of the 30 day trial period as they just wouldn't go loud enough for me. In my room they went up to ~90dB very nicely then they simply ran out of steam. I tried a few other tube amps using different topologies (Jolida 801A, ASL MGSi15DT5, VTL Tiny Triodes) as well as several SS offerings, and it was the Moondogs (and later the Hours) that finally clicked in my system, for my needs. I also agree with those that urge you not to sell your Mac! If it sounds good to you, keep it! I also agree on the preamp suggestion...I would start with a decent 6SN7 based preamp like the one DeanG suggests. Keep us posted on what you decide! (Kind of ironic-as I am getting ready to submit this post I got an email from decware.com ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 ---------------- On 10/5/2003 2:10:48 AM jt1stcav wrote: Gary, it seems your invitation still stands...if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'd like to spend some time auditioning your system. I'll bring the 6-pack...naw, make it a keg and it's party time! ---------------- Jim, this post is a relief. Reading your wistful introduction, I thought you'd switched to white wine... fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 5, 2003 Author Share Posted October 5, 2003 Kelly, thanks for your reply...like everyone else who responded, I appreciate your opinions! That preamp is a work of art, and I assume from the parts used is a first-rate component of the highest order (or ol' Dean would've poo-pooed it, natch). The price is right, that much is certain...I'll have to keep an eye out for this one. It's probably nothing, but I do have one concern...warranty work. If this or any of his (zagger1) other SE amps (his BEZ 300B is awesome) ever needed servicing, I'd rather find a service station here in the states rather than ship the unit all the way to Hong Kong. I'm anal like that, but if it's endorsed by those "in the know" about this type of gear, then it wouldn't stop me from making a purchase myself. There's another Hong Kong firm that makes interesting tube preamps: http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?preatube&1068196710 Not being skilled in the electrical arts, I don't know if this would be considered a quality unit like zagger's, put the price is in my immediate budget. Guess I'll have to save a few more dollars to open my options more. Then I suppose my best options are to either purchase a high-end tube rectified preamp, and/or buy a quality used integrated PP amp. If I do go with vintage (and it's affirmed that I do like the vintage stuff), then Craig would have my business to bring the H.H. Scott or EICO up to specs (and then some). I'll just have to sit on my hands and wait for my income tax refund in February, so I'll have more options to choose from. Seems to me that for my musical tastes, high-end SET is out of the question, unless I win the Lotto (which I can't afford to play anyway), and have several grand to play with for a high-powered triode amplifier. I'm saddened that the ZEN isn't what I hoped for, but like you all said, if I only listened to girl-with-guitar jazz (Kaki King on her Ovation acoustic guitar comes to mind) and background elevator music, then the ZEN would be a logical choice, even if it's not an SET! I learned something new today, and I'm not scared anymore (and for now my McIntosh is breathing a sigh of relief)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 A little info on the pwm (Tripath, etc) amps. In a review done by Stereophile a while ago (which I have misplaced), I noticed that the amp reviewed (a 150 Watt design) was optimized for higher power and was not particularly impressive in terms of distortion and noise at sub-Watt outputs (which I think is what is being considered here). Even in my P6D, which I optimized for sub-Watt listening, there is some "electronic sound" which I believe is distorion and noise, in the sibilances. I suspect this is due, primarily to the Tripath's op-amp input stage. Low level distortion and noise, in all the Tripath chips, is higher (on the Tripath data-sheets) for the higher power implementations. I suspect these 150 Watt amps would be great for high power applications, but I don't think that's what is being considered here. I think what you get with SET is the magic of the absence of rising distortion at sub-Watt power (distortion actually continues to drop as power drops). I like it for vocals, small acoustic ensembles, blues, some jazz (at moderate volumes). I listen to the same Organ works mentioned and, in general, I prefer to use either the pp or Tripath amp. Same is true for very loud orchestral works. When listening to vocals or something like a string quartet, I prefer the SET. Big stuff, I prefer the P6D. For reference, the Chorus-IIs are rated at 101dB at 1W (as are the RF-7s). leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 "A little info on the pwm (Tripath, etc) amps. In a review done by Stereophile a while ago (which I have misplaced), I noticed that the amp reviewed (a 150 Watt design) was optimized for higher power and was not particularly impressive in terms of distortion and noise at sub-Watt outputs (which I think is what is being considered here). Even in my P6D, which I optimized for sub-Watt listening, there is some "electronic sound" which I believe is distorion and noise, in the sibilances. I suspect this is due, primarily to the Tripath's op-amp input stage. Low level distortion and noise, in all the Tripath chips, is higher (on the Tripath data-sheets) for the higher power implementations. I suspect these 150 Watt amps would be great for high power applications, but I don't think that's what is being considered here." leok, it is true that some of the tripath chips do have high distortion figures... if you do more indepth reading on the tripath website you will see that those higher distortion chips are designed for much lower fidelity applications - phone applications, etc.... it is not true in all cases....bel canto and Tact for example have digital amps that have extremely low distortion.... the comment that came from several different companies in my research...is that "getting it right" when it comes to digital amplification is very tricky..... as i mentioned...bel canto and Tact have done that.....and even more importantly Carver Professional seems to have "gotten it right" at an amazing price point..... their three models - from 95 watts per channel to 300 watts per channel are all available for under $1,000 street price. and sony and panasonic have introduced models that are giving performance that far exceeds their cost.... this info is not just coming from one person....there are many people out there who have tried these units and are giving them very high praise...... i suggest that you do some reading on the links that i listed earlier in this thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Leok, While I was under the impression Sony was using Tripath, it turns out they are actually using their own, different, design, called Complementary Pulse Length Modulation, or C-PLM for short. I'll start a new thread so that it doesn't get too far off the original topic here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 5, 2003 Author Share Posted October 5, 2003 Ed, Your knowledge and advice is right on time...thanks! And my McIntosh, like my Klipsch, are a part of me and will never go away...I'd cut off my left sack before I'd ever sell 'em...ugh, I just got a visual...sorry 'bout that! fini, white wine's too dry for me. Give me a Jack 'n' Coke, Michelobe, or Smirnoff ICE! leok, ultimately having two audio systems would be quite nice, each perfected to the type of music selected for them. Last night I blasted AC/DC: The Razor's Edge (peaked at 106dB on my SPL meter)...talk about bite! But technically it's a great sounding recording and sounded amazingly smooth with the Mac and CWs! Wow, I'd need three systems; the one I currently own for rock (and possibly for a future Mac/Heritage HT upgrade), Belle Klipsch and an SET for chamber orchestral works and acoustic jazz ensembles, and for full-blown pipe organ compositions, a pair of Klipschorns and a pair of Manley PP monoblocks/preamp! Can't win the Lotto if I don't play the Lotto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 minn_male42, I'm pretty familiar with the entire Tripath line. I am refering to their higher quality entries. If you look at the THD&Noise vs output power, you'll notice that the lowest distortion at 0.5W is achieved by the TA2024 the TA1101B replacement, which is the lowest power entry. All of them are good, because of my bias toward achieving the lowest possible distortion at sub-Watt powers, I find the TA2024 the most attractive. For people who want higher power, the small tradeoff in slightly higher low power distortion is probably not much of a concern, especially since any amp technology and topology makes a similar tradeoff. Possibly some of the later digial entries are making inroads with respect to low level distortion. My point is to alert poeple to the fine print which indicates in all cases I've seen, that the familiar power vs low level distortion tradeoff exists with pwm technology. leok leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 minn_male42 I have seen the Carver specs. Notice that they list distortion at rated output (just like ss amps do). I wonder what they are at 0.2 Watts? Anyway, since you're getting one, you'll be the expert regarding high power digital amps with Klipsch speakers. I look foreward to your review. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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