Good ol' NOS verses the latest Chinese and Russian valves...

[neo33]

I thought you're trying to prove a point about quality with the big three.

[jazman]

Allan,

What's the title of the James Carter CD? The latest release I see on Amazon is;

J.C. On the Set

~ James Carter

Release Date: June 26, 2001 .

Klipsch out.

[jt1stcav]

All I wanted to know is whether NOS tubes are really worth it in terms of sonics over the newer tubes made today...

Lately it seems like every time I post a thread, a flames war breaks out (see: "The Power and Glory of Stereo-40...my Cornwalls will have to embrace it and my McIntosh will despise it!")

I ain't gonna get involved with this particular topic...I have no beef with Kelly, Craig, or anyone else, and everyone's entitled to their opinions. But I have to admit I feel guilty now driving a 1998 Ford Contour SE, with its failed ABS, a tranny that died after only 40,000 miles, and a defunkt AC blower motor/fan (and I like American cars)!

"Ce La Vei"...(didn't check for spelling).

[neo33]

IMO, NOS tubes are much better then newer tubes both sonically and durability.

[mike stehr]

"All I wanted to know is whether NOS tubes are really worth it in terms of sonics over the newer tubes made today..."

Yes Jim, they can be.

When you ever do get that Pre-amp, listen to for a few weeks or better. Get used to hearing it, and let it settle in.

By then if the Pre-amp still has some sort of sonic signature that your ears are not fond of, then try some different brands.

Chance's are you may like the Pre with the tubes that come with it.

Or you could take your time and scrounge up NOS replacements.

You should be able to get NOS 0D3 regulator tubes for 5 bucks or under.

[maxg]

Well reading this post (other than the flame war in the middle) I think that most here have missed the quality issue altogether.

Frankly I would say that generic quality on appliances, cars, audio equipment and so on is improving rather than degenerating.

I should say that for quality read build quality, reliability, suitability to purpose and so on rather than sonics (more of a taste issue anyway).

Having said that there are a few issues I beleive it is important to understand about product development and deployment in the modern world. Firstly, a lesson from the 60's mainly, is that any product should be built with a defined target lifespan. That applies whether is it a tube with 5000 hours life expectancy or a Volvo with 20 years life expectancy.

That is an important feature for both consumer and manufacturer alike. OVer-engineering any given item is not usually a good idea. It makes it more expensive without necessarily prolonging its useful life. Computers are a case in point.

Right now I am typing on a portable computer. Its keyboard flexes when I hit the keys, as does the palm rest. Does it matter? Is that the deciding factor in its life expectancy - no. Frankly within 3 years this will be junk (ideally re-cylable junk but that is another issue). It will be replaced by an equally flimsy unit with 10 times the CPU power, 20 times the storage and probably the same amount of RAM as I currently have disk storage.

The items that matter on this unit, are, however, of a far higher quality than anything that came before. The hard disk probably has an MTBF of something approaching the life of a Volvo. The CPU and RAM are highly unlikely to fail - even were I to continue using this till the day I pass on.

This is quality where it matters. It is, in many ways the biggest single advancement in manufacturing management in the last 30 years.

Sometimes quality backfires badly if it is not controlled. Anyone here remember the Aston Martin DB5 and DB6? These were arguably the best assembled cars ever to hit the streets. Not uncommon to find examples on roads today with 350,000 miles on them on the orginal clutch. Guess what - it put Aston Martin virtually out of business - why?

For any car manufacturer existing customers are a major source of future revenue (just ask Volvo - 90% of sales are to previous volvo owners). Trouble was the DB's were too good - no-one ever replaced them.

In the end Aston had to launch a new model to attempt to entice owners to change. The new model was bigger, thirtier, uglier and failed to achieve its goal (coming at the time of the first oil crisis didnt help).

Aston Limped on on the verge of bankrupsy for years (slipping into it a few times along the way). Then it was bought out - by ford I think, and lives on.

So far I have avoided tubes in this discussion. To come to those I again think you are all missing the point. Compare the quality of chinese tubes 5 years ago with those today. Notice a change? Massive improvement. Similar, but to a lesser extent for Russian tubes (they were not that bad to start with).

I seem to remember that some of these factories are in the process of gaining ISO 9001 certification, some may already have it. Quality is now being included as a matter of course in the vast majority of manufacturing processes, without the inherent cost overhead that used to imply.

You've talked about cars and more specifically American cars and SUV's. As I own a Chrysler Stratus Cabrio (although it has another name in the US - Sebring I think) and until recently had a Land Rover Discovery Series 2 I'll join that fray too.

The chrysler has had its problems, but not more than the BMW that went before it. It is definitly a safer, better car than its predecessor, better equiped, quieter, easier to drive and probably much more reliable.

The Land Rover was a ridiculous vehicle to have in Athens - but God damn I loved that car. King of the road, invincible, unstoppable and capable of draining an oil field in a single visit. It had to go but I miss it. Incomparibly better than its predecessor - equiped to the nines, quiet as the grave and insane cornering abilities thanks to that electronic rear suspension and a road presence second to none (on this side of the pond).

To summarize. Stop pining for the qualities of yester-year - it wasnt really that good, you just remember it that way...

[NOSValves]

Wow Max that was great !!

[Allan Songer]

The new James Carter CD is "Gardenias for Lady Day" and it's on Sony-seems to be avaiilable only as a hybrid CD/SACD. I just ordered it for $14.99 from Amazon.

[Allan Songer]

By the way "On the Set" was Carter's first record--the 2001 date is some kind of re-release.

[T2K]

Boy I hate to get into this one, but Mark bumped my funny bone.

I think it is our government's responsibility to protect us from ourselves once society has proven that we are too stupid to protect ourselves (the greater good, self preservation, etc.).

Mark's 'penalty' should have ben placed into effect around 1974. Today our sons and daughters would be alive and at home where they belong. Not thousands of miles away looking for WMD that do not exist, in a country with one of the largest known oil reserves.

Keith

[NOSValves]

Allan,

So what type of Jazz is this ?

Craig

[jazman]

Allan,

Thanks. Amazon can be a little misleading if you don't sift through carefully. I looked at the "Import" information which indicated that it was not due for release until Jan '04, so place your order and wait.

I'm on it now. They already have some of these CD's listed as "used" already. Oh how I wish I could start a vinyl pressing company.

Klipsch out.

[sunnysal]

worth a mention that there are NOS sh*t tubes as well as treasure out there. the fact that something is old and never used does not mean it is good. some things always sucked...like pintos....one last semi-rave at NEO, don't take this wrong, but how would you know that NOS beats new? have you auditioned a lot of tubes and come to this conclusion? or have you reasoned it out? may the force be with you all. tony

[neo33]

Tony, I am always open for comments. I have tried a considerable number of NOS and new tubes. Yes, you're right there are some bad NOS tubes out there. But in general, I found NOS to be better then new in my endeavor for tube perfection.

[dodger]

----------------

On 12/2/2003 4:36:39 PM neo33 wrote:

Tony, I am always open for comments. I have tried a considerable number of NOS and new tubes. Yes, you're right there are some bad NOS tubes out there. But in general, I found NOS to be better then new in my endeavor for tube perfection.

----------------

Hello:

FWIW: I also have tried a number of new tubes vs NOS and feel the NOS is superior in a majority of the time.

Regarding longevity, I own two (2) of the BIC 980 TTs from the 70s. I found them to be nice quality was great, not on par with my Sony, but an excellent American TT.

It had a major flaw which contributed to its demise - the price was too low, people didn't think they could be good at a low price. Both still run, changed belts once in all these years.

Win dodger

[sunnysal]

while in many cases I have managed to find old tubes that sounded somewhat better than my new tubes, the jury is still out in my mind if the sonic differences were worth the price difference. Also, I have experienced cases where the new tubes won hands down over old production tubes. As I have stated before, tube rolling is such an individual endeavor that I suspect the best answer in the NOS versus new competition is "who knows" try them out in your system and see (hear), just as you have to try out different NOS tubes in your own system to decide which is best. regards, tony

[maxg]

mdeneen,

Good points all of them. The only issue I would have is that you take "in-extremis" examples to illustrate the argument. I suppose so did I but this really moves away from the point of the quality argument.

The basic concept of quality in the modern era is to raise the standard of the average product, not to affect either the very top or the very bottom (although raising that standard is usually a cited target too).

Yes I can buy French Knives that cost hundreds of $ for a lifetime and cheap asian knives that last a week. In the middle of that range, however, I should be able to buy a knife that lasts years (if not a lifetime) for a relatively low cost in comparison to yester-year.

In many ways I regard the standard of the average product as a good indicator of the level of development of a country. Moving from the UK to Greece was quite eye-opening. 10 years ago, when I arrived, there was almost no middle ground. Things were either good and expensive or rubbish and cheap (from clothes to furniture to electronic goods - you name it).

Over the last 10 years this has changed dramatically. Now it is fully possible to buy reasonably priced goods at acceptable prices. This is true development. It means that the average Greek working man can spend his money and gain value, if still not on a par with the US, approaching it ever closer.

This is the nub of my argument. Pine for the beauties of the hand made widget if you wish, but recognise, at the same time, that those previously mass produced drossy products have come on in leaps and bounds, penetrating markets previously exluded to all but the privaleged few.