Moondogs are not made of chicken bones!

[jazman]

As you most of you know, I asked Paul Parrot for a recommendation of a classical piece that I could use as a reference of the music he likes to play in his room. He submitted two in his response, Mahler's 6th and Mahler's 10th Symphony. Well, as promised, I went out and purchased the three CD set of Mahler Symphony No. 6 "Tragic", on Telarc by the Benjamin Zander Philharmonia Orchestra. The CD I purchased is the one recommended by Parrot, but not the SACD version. I did not want to wait for an Amazon delivery so I scrounged around and found the three CD set at Barnes and Noble Books.

I have now listened to the whole thing, 2 CD's worth, and I want to say without qualifications that the Moondogs CAN handle this piece, and at high volume. Believe me, I would not normally play anything at this level, but I really wanted to find out for myself just where this set amp would land when attempting something like this. Of course I had the Rat Shack meter going and was hitting right on some 105 db peaks, but the majority of the music is NOT in that zone as you should imagine. Dammit, most of you would have been amazed, but then maybe not. The music really threw me back into remembering being in high school and playing in the orchestra. Playing symphony music is what started my love affair with the bass clarinet, which I still love to hear on any opportunity. It's another reason I really love to hear music played by Eric Dolphy, Bennie Maupin, and now James Carter. If you get a chance to hear James Carter, make it a point to do so. Anyway, I digress, back to the Mahler. The combination of the Khorns and the Moondogs can really rock the house.

My Moondogs have these tubes installed. Metal base Mullard GZ34s--> Mullard ECC33's--> Brimar CV1988-->'43 RCA Blackplates, have the "Ultimate upgrade" package, all silver wiring.

The Cary has Mullard 12AU7s, I'm not saying which tubes in cathode position, Mullard EZ81s, Cary factory oil caps upgrade package.

Everything was there in listening to this Mahler symphony. Bells, Violins, Woodwinds, Timpanies. At a couple of passages, I even found myself directing,(high school flashbacks). The soft passages, the opening attacks of the horns, the etherial passages, were all brought home.

This is a good point to say, that I did not switch over to my HF-81, or connect my 100wpc ss Nak power amp for comparison to what I was hearing from the 2A3 Moondogs. Listening to this set of CD's requires 2 hours, so not a quick task. Maybe it will come on a day when I can budget most of it to nothing but that CD, which though I enjoyed the symphony, I'm not likely to do another two, two hour stretches back to back.

This will be probably be my last effort to combat the misinformation and propaganda of the anti-SET brigade. Let me emphasize that I believe I have a better room than most due to it's fairly recent year of build, and generally more solid construction than the typical tract home. The Khorns are one heck of a speaker and presents a very lifelike presentation. No regrets with that purchase. This audition really brings into play some of the text of Are Friends Electric's post, "the significant benefit of single-ended technology has always been the preservation of the whole audio signal. Push-pull technology in contrast demanded that another signal be created in a perfect mirror image to that of the original signal waveform, with use of a phase splitter. This in itself always seemed to be a very tall order, and in some way explained why a simpler approach with single-ended triode could offer a more intense musical connection, to be this close to the artist is magical, but the speed of bass transients to the obvious lucidity in the mid-range, and treble quality that was as clean as it was extended made it so.. Less can be more!"

With that said, let's please get off the, "What SET is not" rants. Paul, the proof is always in the listening. You are so wrong on many counts. I think you would be more than a little surprised a what a pair of Moondogs can do.(That is a somewhat stolen phrase from a Betty Carter song "What A Little Moonlight Can Do".) Craig, please stop always yapping about what a low watt amp can't do. Sometimes you really are over your head. Kelly, you would be more than vindicated, and in my room, Moondogs don't fall down. I also have no idea why anyone would think QUALITY SET amps would not be up to the task of delivering classical material in a "realistic manner". It's just a myth folks. And yes Paul, I'd gladly walk into your room with my Moondogs and Cary pre in hands, knowing the goods would be delivered to your ears. Regardless of what others may think of low watt SET amps, I intend to keep these Moondogs a very long time. They will definitely meet my needs!

Now it's time to switch this station to Charles Mingus's offering "Changes Two", Atlantic Jazz reissue on CD. BTW, According to Mingus himself, he considers "Changes One" and "Changes Two" to be some of his best work. I won't argue. Allan do you have an extra copy of "Changes Two" on vinyl? I have "Changes One" on vinyl. Would love to have Two on vinyl.

Klipsch out.

[NOSValves]

Jazzman,

No combat here ! You do not need to listen to the entire CD again. To see if the Moondogs are giving into the load its a pretty simple test.

Fire the CD up and turn the Moondogs up as loud as you think they can handle it without sound becoming pinched in the peaks of any given sound at least to your ears. Just use a piece that has a steady pace and then you know its going to hit a real stressful area. Keep an eye on your SLP meter when the stressful area hits and record what the SLP meter hits for the peak.

Now fire up the 100 watt beast and do the same type volumes for the Steady pace part of the music. Then see what it records at the stressful spot on your SPL meter. If its higher the Moondogs are pinching the sound. If its not its not. I bet it is but who knows! One thing I can tell you if it does it seems to me you have just broken the law of physics. We proved this with the EICO which has way more power I would think then a Moondog but then maybe not!! I will never know till I hear them myself.

How the 2 amps sound really isn't going prove or disprove your argument or any other point of view because that is all subjective if you think it still sounds good to you or me. You may like the transients crunched down! See what I'm saying?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

[jazman]

Craig,

I played in a damn orchestra. Have you? I don't usually talk about myself because I prefer to deal with the issue. How much orchestra experience do you have? Don't you think I know what the hell I'm listening to? Please, you just won't let it go. According to you a 3.5 watt amp can't do 105 db peaks either. Well, you are dead wrong! Give up the crusade!

That's it. I've walked the extra mile. Read it for what it is. Hate it if you like, I really don't care to deal with the crap you spew anymore.

Klipsch out.

[AnalOg]

Jazzman,

You missed the point, Craig presented it as diplomatic as he could. What he tried to convey was the dynamic range differs between said amps. I think.

Tom

[Parrot]

Jazman,

How did you like the Hammer Blows of Fate?

[dubai2000]

Jazman,

thanks for sharing your Mahler experience. I don't own this particular recording of the symphony, but quite a few others. I cannot but agree with your description (though I am somewhat limited in terms of SPL as I live in a flat and have to consider neighbours). Still, I know that they often hear my music although our building is only two years old. There used to be a time when I attended classical concerts and opera performances quite regularly, so I think I know how a Mahler symphony sounds in a concert hall. If we remember that any audio chain presents a reproduction of the actual event at a smaller scale (after all my home isn't a concert hall), I also believe that SET amps are able of doing justice to such music - I'd even add any of Wagner's Ring operas or Verdi's Requiem (you might also try the one by Berlioz!). Am I saying there is no life beyond SET? Of course not, but to dismiss these amps only because of low wattage misses the point of actually listening experiences (though here starts the subjective area - so each according to his taste )

Wolfram (still in love with those MC-30's!!!)

[NOSValves]

Jazzman,

I really do think you need some help dude. I am indeed truly worried about you. I mean this in serious way ! I was being completely none agressive here. Just trying to get unbiased way for you to confirm. I'm sorry you relying on your ears but it doesn't make it a fact. I'm sorry !

Craig

[jazman]

Parrot,

I have not had the opportunity to listen to the 79:43 worth of discussion by Zander. It took most of my afternoon to listen to the two music CD's.

1.Allego energico, ma non troppo:

Hefrig, aber markig

Are you referring to the above, or is that a description of one of the other movements? Help?

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

Wolfam,

I believe you got the point exactly.

Am I selling SET amps? No.

Did I tell anyone to run out a buy one? No.

Was I attempting to debunk some myths? Yes.

But as you state; "but to dismiss these amps only because of low wattage misses the point of actually listening...."

That was the point. This was an opportunity to have a direct reference to the type of music, played in a large room of similar though not exact dimensions, by the much maligned low watt SET amp. I now know for a fact, that it will register those 105 db dynamic bursts that were supposed to be impossible. I also know that the majority of the music, at least in this case, does not register in that range constantly. I definitely enjoyed the music because it brought back many memorable music experiences of growing up attending operas, and symphonies, and as well as playing. I did not embellish what I heard.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

----------------

On 12/4/2003 12:32:06 AM NOSValves wrote:

Jazzman,

I really do think you need some help dude. I am indeed truly worried about you. I mean this in serious way ! I was being completely none agressive here. Just trying to get unbiased way for you to confirm. I'm sorry relying on your ears is not fact I'm sorry !

Craig

----------------

Craig,

IF you don't wish not to rely on my ears, I choose not to rely on yours. IF you choose not to rely on my SPL meter, so be it. Believe what you care to believe. I really don't care what you think or believe. I wanted to know what would happen. Now I do. I've also reported it here as honestly as possible for others to read. Don't worry about me. Worry about the limits of yourself. It's your brain that's pinching, so Pinch that!

Klipsch out.

[mobile homeless]

Interesting comments. I do like the fact that Edmond actually asked for some disks to try that were used by Parrot to get a handle on his own setup with Moondogs and his new Khorns. He apparently even dragged out the ole SPL meter.

It's 3:46am and my brain is coming apart, otherwise I might have something semi-amusing to say here. As is, it's a lost cause.

I still think there are further differences that distinguish the two topologies that arent revealed by SPL meters or whether it fills a room with live levels.

Perhaps I'll weigh in with something tomorrow after sleep. Perhaps I'll sleep for two days...

kh

[dubai2000]

Edmond,

the passage Paul refers to you'll find in the last movement. Mahler intended three 'blows of fate' but deleted the final one. There is one somewhere in the middle of the movement and right at the very end. No wonder Mahler wanted to call this symphony 'tragic'.

Wolfram

[davmar]

Measure Up and Turn it Down: Decibel Levels Around Us The following are decibel levels of common noise sources around us. These are typical levels, however, actual noise levels may vary depending on the particular item. Remember noise levels above 85 dBA will harm hearing over time. Noise levels above 140dBA can cause damage to hearing after just one exposure.

[maxg]

Jazman,

Sorry I am a bit confused. Were you measuring the SPL at your listening position or at 1 meter from the speakers (assuming they are not the same).

If at 1 meter then I cannot see any reason for a 3.5 wpc SET to reach the levels you are talking about with KHorns.

1W - 104 dB

2w - 107 dB

4w - 110 dB

As you have 3.5 watts you should be able to hit something around 108-9 dB for a peak without problem anyway - did anyone argue otherwise?

If the measurements are at your listening position then repeating the experiment at 1 meter distance would provide an idea of the losses over the distance. It may be that in your room the reduction in volume is lower than usual allowing you to reach these levels. In other words if, say, there is only a 5 dB loss to your listening position from 1 meter distance then you are still within the limits of your amp, but only just...

As an aside I thought we had agreed that transients, by their nature, were too quick to be picked up by a standard analogue meter anyway.

(to take that one step further does anyone know how sensitive out ears are to such brief volume leaps?)

Actually could you provide the dimensions of your listening room - I cant see them on this thread and it would help to provide a frame of reference.

I think to try to repeat this at PaulParrot's (PP - how apt!) house in that room would be a real challenge for any amp let alone SET. That is one big room.

[jazman]

Max,

I would normally sit about 9 ft from the horns, but for this "live" volume level experience, I HAD to move myself back another 5 ft to over 2 meters, almost 3. I had the meter at that position from the horns. It was much too brutal to take any readings from my normal listening position. My room is in US measure, 25+ft by 18+ft wide by 18+ ft high. PP's room is a bit larger and definitely softer judging by the furnishings alone.(I'm poorer.)

I was not attempting to duplicate PP's room. My horns are in different positions, etc, etc. Once again, the idea was to see if the amps bogged down and could not deliver a very good performance at "live" levels, with what he would consider demanding material. I normally would not/do not listen at those levels.

I think Wolfam, who is a classical listener, was not surprised at what I experienced since he had logged some time with the Wrights. And let's not forget that the efficiency(104db) of the Khorns play and important role to the systems performance, as the Belles before did, along with a good preamp. Assembling the right components make a difference when assembling a low watt SET system. The parts used in the amp and preamp, which I think also includes the interconnects at every juction, as well as the choice of tubes. All of the careful choices, and sometimes the expense, may not be much fun to many, but there are dividends. I think those same rules of careful selection also apply to any system, be it SET, PP, or ss, to achieve the most from the music you love.

Klipsch out.

[lynnm]

Another argument that is a load of Carp!

To hell with meters etc.

Any amp that sounds good is a good amp regardless of design and/or cost. If it sounds like hell it is not a good amp.

Sorry to to uncomplicate but there you are..........

Khorns Kelly Khorns......

[maxg]

Jazman,

Thanks for that - helps.

Taking your measurements in feet rather than meters, 9 feet is about 3 meters. Another 5 foot back is another meter and a half so you are around 4.5 meters from the center line of your speakers.

Taking into account your room dimensions you have a remarkable result on your hands.

I think your reference to the more sparce furnishings may be the key here. It is obvious you cannot be experiencing the 6dB drop per meter I would normally use as an estimate as that would mean at least an 18 Db change (meaning you are getting 123 dB at one metre to get 105 dB at your (new) listening position. I think even you will agree that that would be impossible with 3.5 watt amps.

Ultimately I suppose non of this is really relevent to much. You obviously have a speaker/room/amp combo that is working for you and that is all that really matters. Hell - if SETs cant drive KHorns to loud levels they cant drive anything. There aint too many speakers out there with these heady sensitivity levels.

Summary - congrats on both the system and the result.

[Parrot]

Hi Jazman,

I am glad you enjoyed the Mahler. The Hammer Blows of Fate are indeed in the 4th movement (disc 2). Some conductors include two hammer blows, some conductors have three. Originally Mahler called for three, then superstitiously eliminated the third. I don't remember exactly where they are minutes wise, but the first one is in the 13:00 plus area, and then another is around 18:00 something.

Zander has both versions of the 4th movement on the 2nd disc, so that the listener can choose the one he prefers.

From the liner notes by Michael Steinberg, for the benefit of people who do not own it: "From the introduction, variegated, but all slow, the music gradually breaks through once again into the world of marches. The hero goes forth to conquer, but in the full flood of of confidence and exaltation, a hammer-blow strikes him down. This is literally a hammer-blow, for which Mahler wants the effect of a 'short, powerful, heavy-sounding blow of non-metallic quality, like the stroke of an ax.' The music gathers energy, the forward march becomes even more determined, even frenzied in its thrust, only to be halted again by a second hammer-blow."

I have never heard anything like it before, this sledge-hammer striking a large wooden crate (I believe). The blows are something to experience on Klipsch heritage. The first time I heard Zander's superhuman slam, it literally made me jump in my seat. And that's even though I knew it was approaching, having heard other versions.

[NOSValves]

Jazzman,

I see no point in taking this subject any further with you being so hostile and closed minded to see the simple point I am trying to put across. As you know and most everyone here I am not the greatest with expressing my points with the written word so I believe this is the reason these spats break out here at least with me. I need to take more time with my posts but the Oxymoron is. I just do not have that kind of time to waste!

But here goes.

I am not now and never was trying to prove that you or anyone else would not be able to hit 105 dB with a SET amp or that you would not like the sound of what you were hearing. Although when you say that you had to move back away for those levels it pretty much tells me that it may not be sounding all that clean or natural at those levels maybe? I'm absolutely sure with a full Orchestra live they hit those levels no problem.

The simple test above would have made it painfully clear one way or another whether the SET amp was delivery the goods no personal sound preference or preconceived notion to bring into the mix.

I'm sorry but you really have proved nothing here!

Craig

[dubai2000]

Paul,

you make me curious...I think I should get another version of Mahler's 6th.

Wolfram