NOSValves Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Painful being a pain seems fitting ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 ---------------- On 12/4/2003 4:56:17 PM NOSValves wrote: Painful being a pain seems fitting ! ---------------- If you would read french, you would find this song totally appropriate. It is by the way a great song by Jacques Brel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 Parrot, Ok. Now I know what you are referring to. When I heard it, I had to replay it to try to figure out "what happened" and how it fit into the pace and mood of the movement. A quick reference to my notes has "whoa" at approx. 13:25 of the 2nd CD. I will revisit the two versions. I completely enjoyed the music. That's the bottom line. It also appears that my brief report has stirred more controversy. It's really a no win. I can understand an individual's desire to experience the emotion of predictable and specific visceral aspects of that symphony's performance which high volume levels can produce. Personally I prefer the more extemporaneous emotion of Jazz performances, which for me do not generally require those levels. But those are the type of differences and preferances which make the world go around. I am not going to spend energy expounding that Classical can't do this, or Jazz is all that. Whether one likes what a SET amp or a PP amp delivers is fine with me. I attempted to at least put to bed the mistruths that SET amps CAN NOT deliver the goods. I have a friend who's extensive music collection is pretty much 50/50 Classical and Jazz. He has nothing high end in his system when it comes to hardware, but he plays music all the time and enjoys it thoroughly. When I visit, I do not spend one minute thinking, "oh your amp clipped right there", or "this isn't dynamic enough" or any other horse**** than simply enjoy hearing music I don't have in my collection. Enjoying music is about more than a lot of math, meters, scopes, and technical mumbo jumbo. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Translation: In the the first time of the waltz Toute only you mouse already At the first time of the waltz I am alone but I see you And Paris which beats the Paris measurement which measures our agitation And Paris which beats measurement murmurs Me very low murmur A waltz at three times Which still offer the time Which still offers time to offer turnings On the side of the love As it is charming a waltz at four times It is much less dancing It is much less dancing But quite as charming As a waltz at three times a waltz at twenty years It is much more disconcerting It is much more disconcerting But much more charming Than a waltz at three times a waltz at twenty years a waltz at hundred time a waltz at hundred years a waltz that means A each crossroads In Paris than l`amour Rafraîchit in spring a waltz at thousand times a waltz at thousand times that you are twenty years old And so that I have twenty years a waltz at thousand times a waltz at thousand times a waltz with thousand Offre time only to the lovers Three hundred trente-trois times time to build a novel In the the second time of the waltz One is two you are in my arms At the second time of the waltz We count both one two three And Paris which beats the measurement Paris which measures our agitation And Paris which already beats measurement Us fredonne fredonne A waltz at three times Which still offer the time Which still offers time to offer turning On the side of the love As it is charming a waltz at four times It is much less dancing It is much less dancing But quite as charming As a waltz at three times a waltz at twenty years It is much more disconcerting It is much more disconcerting But much more charming Than a waltz at three times a waltz at twenty years a waltz at hundred time a waltz at hundred time a waltz that means A each crossroads In Paris than the Rafraîchit love in spring a waltz at thousand times a waltz with thousand dansant that you are twenty years old And so that I have twenty years a waltz at thousand times a waltz at thousand times a waltz with thousand Offre time only to the lovers Three hundred trente-trois times time to build a novel At the third time of the waltz We valsons finally the every three At the third time of the waltz There is has there you the love and y has me And Paris which beats the Paris measurement which measures our agitation And Paris which beats Laisse measurement finally to burst its joy A waltz at three times Which still offer the time Which still offers time to offer turning On the side of the love As it is charming a waltz at four times It is much less dancing It is much less dancing But quite as charming As a waltz at three times a waltz at twenty years It is much more disconcerting It is much more disconcerting But much more charming Qu`une waltz at three times a waltz at twenty years a waltz at hundred years a waltz that s`entend A each crossroads In Paris than l`amour Rafraîchit in spring a waltz at thousand times a waltz at thousand times a waltz spent time Of ¼«@ And so that I have twenty years a waltz at thousand times a waltz at thousand times a waltz with thousand Offre time only to the lovers Three hundred trente-trois times time to build a novel Makes sense to me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Or, if you prefer: ¿ÐÃ÷TouteÀǾȿ¡ ù¹ø°·Î ´Ü ³Ê ¿ø¹«°îÀÇ Ã¹¹ø°·Î¿¡ Áã ÀÌ¹Ì ³ª´Â È¥ÀÚ¼ ÀÌ´Ù ±×·¯³ª ³ª°¡ ¾ÆÁ÷µµ Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â 3 ¹ø¿¡ ³Ê¿¡ ÀÇÇÏ¿©¿Í Æĸ®°¡ Ãø·®À» Ä¡´Â ¿ì¸®ÀÇ µ¿¿ä ¹× Æĸ®¸¦ ÃøÁ¤ÇÏ´Â Æĸ® Ãø·®À» Ä¡´Â ¾ÆÁÖ ³·Àº ¼Ó»èÀÓA¿ø¹«°î 4 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀ» ±×°Í ¸ÅȤÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â ±×³É ¾ÆÁ÷µµ »ç¶ûÀÇ Ãø¿¡turningsÀ» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â ½Ã°£À» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â ½Ã°£ ÀÌ´Ù ¸Å¿ì 3 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀÌ ´Ù·®¿¡°Ô ´õ ´çȲÇÏ°Ô ÇÔ ±×°Í ÀÌ´Â 20 ³â¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ´Ù·® ´çȲÇÏ°Ô ÇÏ´Â ±×·¯³ª ´Ù·® ¸Å·ÂÀû ´õ ´õ º¸´Ù´Â À̴٠ó·³ ´õ ÀûÀº Ãã ±×·¯³ª È®½ÇÈ÷ ¸Å·ÂÀû ¸Å¿ì ÀÌ´Â ´õ ÀûÀº Ãã Áß¾ó°Å¸°´Ù ³ª´Â º»´Ù 3 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î 20 ³â¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ¹é ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ¹é ³â¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ³Ê´Â 20 »ì ÀÌ´Ù °í º½¾È¿¡l`amourRafra4ichitõ ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î õ ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îº¸´Ù´Â °¢AÀ» Æĸ®¾È¿¡ ±â·Î ÀǹÌÇÏ´Â ¿ø¹«°î ¹× ³ª´Â ¿ÐÃ÷ °ÍÀǾȿ¡ ¼Ò¼³À» 2 ¹ø°·Î °ÇÃàÇÏ´Â ¾ÖÀÎ 300trente-trois½Ã°£ ½Ã°£¿¡ õ ¹ø¿¡ õ ¹ø¿¡ 20 ³âÀÌ ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°îOffreõ ½Ã°£¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ´Ü ÀÌ´Ù ³Ê°¡ 2 ¹ø°·Î¿¡ ¿ì¸®°¡ ¾çÂÊ 1 2 3°³À» ¹× ¼¼´Â ¿ø¹«°îÀÇ ³ªÀÇ ÆȾȿ¡ ÀÌ´Â 2 »ì Àִ´٠Çϱâ À§ÇÏ¿© Ä¡´Â Æĸ® ¾ÆÁ÷µµ ¸Å¿ì 3 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀÌ °¢À»Rafra4ichit»ç¶ûº¸´Ù´Â Æĸ®¾È¿¡ ±â·Î ÀǹÌÇÑ´Ù °í ¸Å¿ì ´õ ±×°Í ´çȲÇÏ°Ô ÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â 20 ³â¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î À̴٠ó·³ ´õ ÀûÀº Ãã ±×·¯³ª È®½ÇÈ÷ ¸Å·ÂÀû ¸Å¿ì ÀÌ´Â ´õ ÀûÀº Ãã ÀÌ´Â 4 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀ» ¸ÅȤÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â ±×³É ¾ÆÁ÷µµ »ç¶ûÀÇ Ãø¿¡ µ¹À» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â ½Ã°£À» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â ½Ã°£À» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â 3 ¹ø¿¡ ÀÌ¹Ì Ãø·®À» ¿ì¸®µéfredonnefredonneA¿ø¹«°î Ä¡´Â ¿ì¸®ÀÇ µ¿¿ä ¹× Æĸ®¸¦ ÃøÁ¤ÇÏ´Â 3 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îº¸´Ù´Â ´çȲÇÏ°Ô ÇÔ ±×·¯³ª ¸Å¿ì ¸Å·ÂÀû ¸Å¿ì ´õ Ãø·® Æĸ® 20 ³â¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ¹é ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ¹é ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°î º½¾È¿¡ õ ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î¿¡´Âdansant³ª´Â 3 ¹ø°·Î¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀÇ 3 ¹ø°·Î¿¡ ¼Ò¼³À» ¿ì¸®valsons¸¶Áö¸·À¸·Î ¿ø¹«°îÀÇ °¢ 3 °ÇÃàÇÏ´Â ¾ÖÀÎ 300trente-trois½Ã°£ ½Ã°£¿¡ õ ¹ø¿¡ õ ¹ø¿¡ 20 ³âÀÌ ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°îOffreõ ½Ã°£¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ´Ü °Å±â¼ Àִ´٠Çϱâ À§ÇÏ¿© ³Ê°¡ 20 »ì À̴ õ¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀÌ ÀÌ´Â °Å±â¼ ³Ê°¡ »ç¶û ÀÖ°í y¿¡´Â ³ª¿Í ¾ÆÁ÷µµ ¾ÆÁ÷µµ Á¦¾È ½Ã°£À» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â 3 ¹ø¿¡ ±×°ÍÀÇ ±â»ÝA¿ø¹«°îÀ» ÆÄ¿Çϱâ À§ÇÏ¿©LaisseÃø·®À» ¸¶Áö¸·À¸·Î Ä¡´Â ¿ì¸®ÀÇ µ¿¿ä ¹× Æĸ®¸¦ ÃøÁ¤ÇÏ´Â Æĸ® Ãø·®À» Ä¡´Â Æĸ®°¡ Àִ´٠4 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀ» ±×°Í ¸ÅȤÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â ±×³É »ç¶ûÀÇ Ãø¿¡ µ¹À» Á¦¾ÈÇÏ´Â ½Ã°£Àº ¸Å¿ì 3 ¹ø¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀÌ ¹é ³â¿¡ 20 ³â¿¡ 3 ¹ø¿¡ °í ³ª´Â õ ¹ø¿¡ 20 ³âÀÌ ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°îÀÌ ¿¡ Àִ´٠Çϱâ À§ÇÏ¿©s`entendAõ ¹ø¿¡ õ ¹ø¿¡ º½¾È¿¡l`amourRafra4ichitº¸´Ù´Â Æĸ®¾È¿¡ ±â·Î ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°î °¢¼À� ¿ÐÃ÷ ±âÁøÇÏ´Â ½Ã°£ "@, ±×¸®°í ¸Å¿ì ´õ ±×°Í ´çȲÇÏ°Ô ÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â 20 ³â¿¡ ¿ø¹«°î ´çȲÇÏ°Ô ÇÏ´Â ±×·¯³ª ¸Å¿ì ¸Å·Â ¿ø¹«°î ¸Å¿ìQu`une´õ ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°î ¿ø¹«°î À̴٠ó·³ ´õ ÀûÀº Ãã ±×·¯³ª È®½ÇÈ÷ ¸Å·ÂÀû ¸Å¿ì ÀÌ´Â ´õ ÀûÀº Ãã ÀÌ´Ù ¼Ò¼³À» °ÇÃàÇϱâ À§ÇÏ¿© õ ¹ø ¾ÖÀο¡°ÔOffreõ ½Ã°£¿¡ ¿ø¹«°îÀº ´Ü 300trente-trois½Ã°£ ½Ã±â¸¦ Á¤ÇÑ´Ù Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Something tells me it lost some of its magic in the translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Jeff, I think your right! To painful to read ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Good post, Jazman. I had written this 15 paragraph response to Dean and then just said, "what the hell am I doing? This is a collossal waste of time." As Jeff said to me earlier, "it's like talking about the Iraq invasion with a room full of Republicans" HEh..I had to laugh, since Jeff is from QUEBEC! Anyway, the two topologies acutally have different strengths and weaknesses. I like both but recognize the strengths of each. The problem with those that fault SET for various volume and dynamics reasons is that I dont think they have heard what it CAN do and the very real difference it DOES bring. ANd you know, I understand the skepticism. Jazman's great line was "I enjoyed the music" which is a point that seems very important. What one might gain from this exercise (and that's all it is, an exercise), is that Edmond went out and bought two new CDs that he didnt have and ejoyed them both, thereby exposing himself to something NEW. I might throw up some well written, articulate comparisons between SET and PP both within their limits and the differences one might perceive if trying to come to grips with the distinction via words. Then again, it might be a waste yet again. I am sitting here listening to Mahler myself right now, and can see where the majesty of some of the movements might call for the type of reproduction that high power brings. The irony here is that about 12 years ago, I was having the same argument with a SOLID STATE guy who was trying to tell me that his Krell KSA-250 could do dynamics far better than ANY lame, colored, loose bottom tube amp! It's all relative... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Jazzman, I can live with your post above almost completely! I would change one thing however. When you say that low watt SET can deliver the goods. It should of read .... It can deliver the goods for me I myself at times can use up every bit of 25 to 30 watts of my amps so as you can see there is no way it could ever "deliver the goods for me" To each his own there are no absolutes Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 That was a good post Edmond. Kelly -- But most SS sounds kind of poopy on our horns -- so it's a bad argument from the get go. I don't think anyone here is saying ultimate dynamics is the end all. I certainly don't believe that. If I believed that I wouldn't be listening to RF-7s. "Enjoying music is about more than a lot of math, meters, scopes, and technical mumbo jumbo." Yes, but we're not in this thing like we are so we can experience the music we love at a mediocre level. I can enjoy a tune with Debbies radio -- but I bet the math, meters, scopes, and technical mumbo jumbo would explain why it sounds so horrid. "I had written this 15 paragraph response to Dean..." Should have posted it. All of that excercise gone to waste. I just think the louder you like to listen, and the more complex the material -- the more power you need. Gaining "sublimity" means sacrificing some dynamics, and gaining dynamics means sacrificing some sublimity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Dean, that was great ! The hard part I think with my amps or any amp for that matter is finding that happy mid point where the compromises on either side of the spectrum are at an absolute minimum. I think I have made it for the most part.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 ---------------- . . . gaining dynamics means sacrificing some sublimity. ---------------- This has not been demonstrated to me and I remain an unbeliever until I experience it for myself. Jazman, do you use your Belles anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Paul, why do you think people go with 3.5w single-ended amplifiers over 50w glorious watts of pp? I mean, the compromises are incredible and the restrictions great, right? Why? From the sound of it, you think they are either buying into total hype and replaying the hype when they describe it or just dont know what they are hearing, liking mushy, compressed sound instead of quality dynamics. 98% of the people that get into quality low power triode SET amps have been living with quality PP tube amps for more than a few years. Most of the guys in DIY cut their teeth on modifying Dynaco, EICO, and other vintage amps. Every one of those guys I know personally built push pull circuits and almost every one to a tee is now experimenting with various Directly heated triode topologies, mostly SET. What do you think they are after or do you think they are deluding themselves in moving away from the Eico HF-20, Dynaco, Sansui mod rebuilds? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Yeah, it is weird, isn't it? I don't begin to understand it. Anyway, what happens when you hit 5000 posts, mobile? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I havent even LOOKED at the number of posts I have written since I have been back. You know, it's depressing as hell. The only way I knew where I was is the other day, Audrey passed by and stated, "You've written over 4500 posts in that place?????" with the same tone and delivery as someone commenting on fungus spreading in a YMCA show stall.... Perhaps at 5000 I'll be cured and the bookmark erased. More than a few would applaud, including my wife who thought the Audio Asyum was as low as you could go. When she saw the 4500, she probably let out a sigh that frightened the cat... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 why do you think people go with 3.5w single-ended amplifiers over 50w glorious watts of pp? I can answer that <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 90% romantic refined perception of Sophistication 10% they truly like the way it sounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Anyway, what happens when you hit 5000 posts, mobile? Your statis changes to "This guy has to be a Idiot" Oh wait I'm almost there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Craig, You cannot fix percentages like that. Kind of like the percentage of people who like the sound of Sony CD players. Art Dudley had a nice "Listener" style article in Stereophile that actually made a passive reference the "colored" horn speakers. Premise.... if it sounds good to you, it is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Pop Quiz! Paul and Craig, can you tell me why I am dumping my 100W McIntosh SS monoblocks (as much as I love McIntosh sound) to "downgrade" to the sound of a mere 3.5W SET monoblocks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 It's good to know you can see the light, Craig. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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