MDC Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I was informed that I might get better results if I reposted this question here instead of the commercial audio forum so here it is: Greetings, I hope someone can give me a bit of advice on a problem I have been working on. Recently my church elected me to replace the current sound system and I need some help with what to buy. The budget will be less than $4000 if possible and this is a completely replacement of the existing hardware. The requirements are: 4 wireless hand-held mics, 1 wireless lapel mic (variable frequency), CD player, tape deck (capable of recording sermons and playing music for a song while recording the music and vocals) (this may be easier with two tape decks), mixer with room for expansion, amplifier, 3 mic stands, 1 podium mic stand, cables, and speakers. What I have been looking at so far is Nady wireless handheld 4 mic 401-HT, Sony wireless lapel mic UWP-S1, Mackie CFX20 mixer, Pyle PT668C CD player, and Marantz PMD505 tape deck. I have not yet found a good amplifier for this setup, and I have not been able to select an appropriate set of speakers. I think that a set of Klipsch Chorus or equivilent would look nice enough that the ladies in the church would accept them and still deliver the appropriate sound throughout the sanctuary relatively efficiently. I basically need good quality stuff that will last a long time at a reasonable price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 what's the OLD system comprised of?! Don't throw it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 How big is the sanctuary, easier still, how many does it seat? I would recommend going smaller than Chorus', and hanging/bracketing from the rafters for equal coverage. Stay with us here, as there are several here with a good background in this area. As a starting point, something like this looks very good, and reasonably priced as well. "The MA-1200 series of professional rackmount mixer/amplifiers are designed for larger background music/paging and public address system installations where expandability and flexibility is the ticket. These new units are exceptional values, loaded with features and are easy to install in a variety of system designs." 10 balanced mic or line inputs all available with 24V phantom power 2 auxiliary stereo summing inputs with 4 level sensitivity adjustment 120 watt power output Barrier strip output for 8 ohms, 25V, 70.7V and 100V distributed systems Balanced line level output for adding additional power amplifiers 24 volt powered operation available for emergency power requirements Adjustable level telephone paging input Independently adjustable low power monitor output Integrated rack ears allow for rack mounting without additional accessories $500 at www.partsexpress.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 BigBusa brought up a good point. The old stuff can be sold to offset cost or up the amount available per budget. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 One more question.... on the $4000 budget, will you be doing the installation yourself? In addition to the dimensions of the room, if you could post a picture or two of the worship space that would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDC Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Thanks for the quick responses. The current system is all radio shack or cheaper stuff. A old cheap boombox for playing CDs, a very old and almost nonfunctional karaoke machine for playing cassettes, one wired mic that works intermittently, a wireless lapel mic that can't change frequency and is fond of picking up ball games and other local church sermons during our sermon, etc. The only thing that might be of some value is an old Kustom tube amp that I have not been able to get access to yet. I have already told the pastor and treasurer that it might be possible to sell it to get some of the cost of the new system back. Our typical attendance is around 100 in the sanctuary, I am not sure what the exact capacity is, I will have to look into that. I will be doing the installation and setup/training myself, I will try to get some pictures and dimensions next time I am able to. I get the impression that they would rather have a mixer board with a separate amplifier instead of a powered mixer. For speakers, I mentioned hanging some from the ceiling and that idea didn't fly, they would rather have them sitting on the stage or on stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzmansound Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 hi mdc. this is jazz can you cal me on wed. morning befor 10 am if you can .i just started working on a sound system in a church ,i think should be able to help.i been doing sound for more then 20 years live and a dj.my phone is 810 743 0979. \ jazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 i would highly recommend that you find a local pro-audio dealer and buy everything through that store...you might find that you'll get a lot of great deals off old equipment they're trying to get rid of, as well as good advice and the ability to feel out the equipment before you make a purchase. If you would like some online references, here's two great links: Carvin Sound Systems (carvin is good quality and is not very expensive at all, i would highly recommend going this route...i think they only sell through the internet). Musician's Friend (if they sell it, it'll probably be cheaper than anywhere else) After a quick search, I thought this would make a good choice: http://www.carvin.com/cgi-bin/Isearch.exe?CFG=2&P2=1644-832A&P1=SYS2 Cover audiences up to 700 people with this sound system. Package includes: two 832A 15" 2-way APS Powered 350W loudspeakers, two XLR50 speaker cables, and a C1644 16 channel stereo mixer with digital effects. Add additional speakers to increase coverage. -$1399.99 This would leave you with $2400 for everything else...which leaves you with room for higher quality wireless mics (trust me, you're gonna want it in the long run). I would highly recommend the Sennheiser Evolution 100 Series if you can find some good deals... http://www.sennheiserusa.com/pages/products/evolution/e100.htm I bet you could probably get 5 for around $2000 if you looked hard enough. And that would leave about $400 for the playback and recording stuff. Get a $200 combo CD/Tape deck and then another Tape deck for recording and you're all set I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Heresys. I see flying Heresys. With a couple of Subs discretely placed for the bottom octave. The name may not be appropro but the sound would be rightous. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Woodog also does this for his church. I'd send him a pm also. He has both cornwalls and heresys setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodog Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 ---------------- On 12/9/2003 10:28:26 AM MDC wrote: I was informed that I might get better results if I reposted this question here instead of the commercial audio forum so here it is: Greetings, I hope someone can give me a bit of advice on a problem I have been working on. Recently my church elected me to replace the current sound system and I need some help with what to buy. ---------------- I am the musician for a Unitarian Universalist Church, and the system I set up can be seen in the thread 'Another New Klipsch User..." Use the search feature at the top of this page and type in 'Another New Klipsch User' and you'll see it. Our room holds about 120, and any given Sunday there are approx 60 - 80 folks there. In the pictures you'll see a pair of 1976 Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys ... not only do they sound beautiful, but they are so aptly named for a Unitarian Church. Anyway, if the speakers sound bad, no ultra-microphone or nifty eq will ever get them to sound good, so get the best signal chain that you can afford. It was pure luck (and a bit of homework) that led me to Klipsh, and the Cornwall/Heresy combo in our meeting room produces a *superb* sound. We also use a subwoofer that was custom built by one of our members. It gives the low end a beefiness that is lost without it. I use 1 wireless mic, an electric piano (Roland RD-600), and depending on who is doing what, have hooked up electric basses, guitars, SM58's and SM57's. I only use one Eurorack mixing board. It was $125.00 used. (the model # escapes me at the moment) but it has enough flexibility for my purposes. I also use an Alesis Quadraverb *very* sparingly. the power supply for this is (don't laugh) an Onkyo 4500 receiver that puts out about 50 - 60 watts per side into 4ohms. I run the signal from the board into a tape input. Of course, I had no one to answer to except myself. I bought and I own the equipment, but there is a lot to be said for mining the used market. I suppose if I had had to answer to one of the many committees I might have had to put together a different system altogether. I liked the sound so well I bought another set of Cornwalls for my home (and kissed my Bose 901s goodbye). And if I every decide to do a 'non-churched' life.. I bet that 2 pairs of Cornwalls and 1 pair of Heresys will make a pretty adequate home theater. (!!) But... you should seriously consider all advice that is offered here. These folks are into great sound. Don't skimp on the speakers! The quality of sound you deliver makes such a huge difference in the church experience. Now.. about those room dimensions...??? Acoustically wet or dry?? Carpet? No? etc.. later, Forrest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn58 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I second the motion to find a pro audio delaer in your area. but if you are doing your self I would go with some used. My list Mixer= soundcraft 200b,Allen Heath mixwizard, tapco Mikes= Shure sm 58 vocals sm 57 for miking. There are a million mikes on the market but these shures will never let you down. shure wireless or nady. power amp= Crown psa2 best power amp dea on the used maket, Crowm microtec, Crown dc 300. I find for the money used nothing bets a old crown. speakers= Klipsch pro lascala,EAW,JBL,EV If its just a smaller place some klipsch Hearsey willl work great but i would add some fuse protection. I would buy a tascam porta studio tape deck used or go with a new digital pora studio or one of it many clones. mike stands used ATLAS or AKG . Or go crazy and put together a smoking vintage sytem with Mcintosh tube amps and altec a7 or klipsch lascala with a altec tube mixer....warm sounding that will only go up in vaule. All above can be found almost anyday on ebay. if your in the Boston Area I could help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn58 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I second the motion to find a pro audio delaer in your area. but if you are doing your self I would go with some used. My list Mixer= soundcraft 200b,Allen Heath mixwizard, tapco Mikes= Shure sm 58 vocals sm 57 for miking. There are a million mikes on the market but these shures will never let you down. shure wireless or nady. power amp= Crown psa2 best power amp dea on the used maket, Crowm microtec, Crown dc 300. I find for the money used nothing bets a old crown. speakers= Klipsch pro lascala,EAW,JBL,EV If its just a smaller place some klipsch Hearsey willl work great but i would add some fuse protection. I would buy a tascam porta studio tape deck used or go with a new digital pora studio or one of it many clones. mike stands used ATLAS or AKG . Or go crazy and put together a smoking vintage sytem with Mcintosh tube amps and altec a7 or klipsch lascala with a altec tube mixer....warm sounding that will only go up in vaule. All above can be found almost anyday on ebay. if your in the Boston Area I could help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I've had excellent results with Full Compass (800 356-5844.) Their prices are very good, and the people are helpful once you get used to the idea of working over the phone. Your budget may be a problem. Good wireless mics are pricey ($600 and up) and cheap wireless mics cause more problems than they solve. Also plan on adopting a battery dealer - the wireless mics I've used go through 9 volt batteries pretty fast. Don't overlook Bogen. I bought one of their amps for a church near here. It had phantom power, a seven band equalizer (a must for this sort of thing,) an "aural exciter," balanced and unbalanced inputs, 70 and 25 volt outputs, and didn't sound half bad either. I've never been a big fan of Shure mics, although they do have a deserved reputation for ruggedness - a big plus in your application. Audio Technica also makes a fine line of mics, though not as "bullet-proof" as the Shures. Stay away from pawn shops!!! The stuff I've seen in pawn shops has almost invariably been ill-used (and bad smelling, too.) The prices aren't that good either - I've seen a battle scarred SM-58 selling for $20 more than a brand new one from Full Compass. Get used to the idea that not everyone will be happy with the final result. You'll always have some one with a hearing problem who insists on sitting way in the back. Avoid the temptation to put the speakers in the back. Theoretically, they should share as many planes (horizontal, vertical, etc) as possible with the mic position, although higher is usually not a bad trade-off - it lets you get loud enough for the people in the back without knocking the hats off the ladies in the front row. Sound is relatively slow travelling in the grand scheme of things, and if your audience hears the speaker before the source, or one speaker before the other, things tend to get a bit garbled. There are ways of electronically fixing this problem, but again, it's pricey. Finally, remember the first law of buying anything - "The Salesman is NOT your friend!" Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR69 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Some of this is a repeat of other's responses, but it will save you to learn from our mistakes You spec'd 3 wireless handheld mics - if at all possible use wired mics - they are cheaper, you can find mics for specific purposes and you will less likely to pick up noise or interference. Someone already mentioned Shure SM57 and SM58- I second them inexpensive, good frequency response and pick up patterns and a low signal to noise ratio - so you will not hear any crowd noise, etc. and I will add Sennheiser MD421U - its pricey but great for people with deep voices and looks good on the pulpit. I would try to stay away from Mackie Mixers - the quality has dropped considerably in the past 10 years and in dark settings (clubs and theatres especially) the knobs are hard to distinguish/differentiate due to using similiar colors. I highly recommend Allen and Heath mixers - inexpensive and great EQ sections. Also, in all mixers look for 110mm faders as opposed to 80mm - gives you more control. For amps I recommend QSC or Crown To save money you can make your own cables (speaker and mic) if you or a parisioner knows how to solder. Don't forget a room EQ - look for 1/3 octive and selectable +/-6 or +/- 12 dB. You might also want to ask if anyone as an old CD or cassette decks to donate. Lastly, you will get a better deal if you would with one dealer for all the gear. Good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions - their is a tremendous wealth of knowlegde on this forum. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 In the pictures you'll see a pair of 1976 Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys ... not only do they sound beautiful, but they are so aptly named for a Unitarian Church. ------------------------- Forrest, That is a good one. A Unitarian friend told me this joke.... I have some hesitation in telling it, and better not, even though it is mild and in the same spirit as your post. Just on the possibility that someone might take offense. Later, Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Great speakers for use in church pa systems, made by Community: http://www.loudspeakers.net/main/index.php?option=articles&task=viewarticle&sid=19 You can get hardware to fly them. Lots of different crown amps are good. If you can make your own cables, get Neutrik connectors, as they are a breeze to work with and hold up very well. They don't have all the little set screws that the Amphenol and Cannon connectors do. I'm in the Chattanooga TN area, but email Tracy Miller DBTUSA@aol.com He sells all kinds of gear (and installs it), and is VERY generous to churches. Ditto on the Allen and Heath mixers. Soundcraft gear is also okay. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 reading this thread brought up something I've been wondering about... How well do "home speakers" work in PA applications? I have tested on numerous occasions what home speakers sound like with all my PA equipment and no matter what, it's always been lacking. I was just wondering what others who have made the comparison think. My home speakers sound great in a room, but when brought into big open spaces they're just not the same as a "PA speaker". That's not to say they don't sound good...it's just something I was pondering. Another thing to mention: the Klipsch professional line of speakers are freakin amazing (I'd say best in the industry)...If you can find/afford something like this one, then you're off to a great start: http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=250 (I use some KP-3002's which are very similar and they are great for "touring" which means they're very portable and sound good anywhere...picnics, retreats, and other things your church might do outside it's walls where sound is needed). crown amps are always good (never heard of a bad one) and I will third(?) the Allen & Heath mixers...they are oh so smooth and clean sounding. Denon makes some very amazing CD and tape players, but is on the pricey side. Marantz is also very good for tape decks (especially when using metal tapes...i've never heard tape hiss on one). and here's some more links: http://www.marantzpro.com/Products/PMD350.html http://www.marantzpro.com/Products/PMD501.html http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=3 another thing to consider...if you have a laptop or computer readily accessible, you could look into recording with the pc (and even playing back with the pc if you wanted). It is much easier and even cheaper than recording to audio cassette and nowadays more people have CD players in their cars than tape decks. (I currently run a recording studio for a church and we switched over to CDs just recently and the production time went from 30 hours to about 10 hours.) If you're interested in this route, let me know and I'll give you lots more links I think you'll find that the more you research, the more options you'll find opening up. and once when you're finished installing, you gotta let us know what you did and your opinions after everything settles in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 $ 4000 is a tight budget Used Hereseys and a couple of Parts Express DIY subs would be nice. The EV mixer amp Dean listed looks good. Shure SM-58s new are worth it; buy them new! Any old CD plyer should be fine for church. Use the old wireless mics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDC Posted December 14, 2003 Author Share Posted December 14, 2003 Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread. The church seating capacity is 220, I do not have dimensions. I do have some pictures of the sanctuary that I can post if needed. The church has decided it definately wants to go all-wireless, no hanging speakers (but they may go for some on stands), a and non-powered mixer. I'm looking at having them buy the mixer, mics, tape deck(s) and CD player and loaning them speaker amp combinations until we find what works best. They want me to pick two to three complete systems, put my recommendation on one of them, and then allow them to vote on their choice. Since that is the case, I have a considerable amount of research to do still, and more help is definately appreciated. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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