Malcolm Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Yep, sounds like sour grapes to me. If you got sniped, you didn't bid high enough in the first place. I assume you bid as much as you were willing to pay. So if you didn't get it, you should be glad you didn't wind up paying more than that. If not, you should have bid higher. Why sweat it? Another one of whatever you were bidding on will come around sooner or later. It might even be in better condition or go for less. FWIW sniping does not always work. Because of the vagaries of the internet and eBay's systems, a last minute bid may not make it in time. And the sniper does not know what your maximum bid is. He just bids his maximum. The folks that really amuse me at auctions, on-line or otherwise, are the ones who get into bidding wars and wind up paying far more that the item is worth. I saw two couples do it bidding on a top-of-the-line refrigerator/freezer at a brick and mortar auction site. And I have seen similar things on eBay. When this happens with something I am bidding on, all I can do is sit back and marvel at it. My strategy is to bid my maximum to start unless the item has an unusual amount of activity. If bidding is too active, I'll hold off bidding until the last minute to avoid giving the folks who are too impulsive any incentive to drive the price up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted January 4, 2004 Author Share Posted January 4, 2004 Nope, no sour grapes, just didn't really understand all the bidding strategies, and have never heard of "sniping" until this thread which has been informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 If we are talking about the ethics of bidding, why don't we just move Ebay over to ubid.com, which is much more traffic driven. If there is no action, the auction ends in ten minutes. I don't know of anyone who does not want to snipe a great deal, and most of the stereo gear we buy is not needed anyway! I know - we should all buy a $200 tower Panasonic system with scratchy speakers - and donate anything above that to support efforts for world peace The other way to look at the ethical dilemna is like the Polish calvalry divisions at the beginning of WWII. They had the finest horse calvalry in Europe, and Germany smashed them in three days Changing times, changing paradigms! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 rangersix, my analogy was a stetch...but as far as the m1 goes, they just told me to point my front end towards the enemy and keep shootin' ... gotta keep it simple for the tankers -- although i don't remember why, they did say avoid chopper's at all costs....hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerSix Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 ---------------- On 1/4/2004 10:47:02 AM fini wrote: Ranger, The ethics of bidding against someone else? Or the ethics of selling to the person who will pay the most? ---------------- Neither (edit: after reflection your first question would apply). Im referring to the ethics of last-second bidders. From where I stand, sniping violates the spirit of the auction versus the actual practicalities of it. The last-second bid geared to preventing counter-bids from other prospective auctioneers is, in my most humble of opinions, the proverbial cheap shot. Assuming of course that the last-second bidder did not bid previously and intentionally waited to the last possible moment. Likewise, there is also a large measure of responsibility on part of other prospective eBayers to bid appropriately to prevent losing the auction to a sniper. If an eBay protagonist fails to sufficiently buffer his or her bid amount then of course they have no grounds to whine about their loss. Some of you have referred to it as being sour grapes? Not to me and please in the future dont assume otherwise. Im simply creating discussion and offering a different point of view on the merits, or lack thereof, of sniping. My very first successful bid on ebay was the result of sniping. After that, I told myself I would never do it again. It didnt seem right. Again, its a judgment call that I made in MY conduct of bidding. That doesnt mean that I dont employ a certain amount of strategy in the bidding process. It simply means that I will not submit a bid within the last minute of bidding. I just sit back and gleefully watch the vermin come out of the woodwork to attempt to outbid me. In 8 out of 10 cases it works for me. For that other 20%, well I dont sulk about the loss. They simply surpassed my threshold point for what I was willing to pay. Thats cool in my book. It seems like folks are using military vignettes to justify their position on sniping. However, the examples given are not necessarily applicable to the topic under discussion. I understand the idea of implementing superior tactics on the field of battle should circumstances presents itself, but in this case I dont feel sniping is superior in its application. Its a technique for sure, but not superior. However, I do feel its use is cowardly and violates the spirit of the auction. Ebay should change its bidding procedures. "Changing times, changing paradigms"? Just because one can do it, does not make it right. Here is my vignette: A thief (well call him Kain) breaks into your home severely harming your wife, and steals a valuable collection worth a considerable amount of money. On the criminals departure from your house Kain is attacked by your loyal 200 lbs Bull Mastiff, suffers deep lacerations, trauma to the face and breaks a leg in the struggle. Because of the injuries, the police quickly catch the thief. However, the police innocently violate several minor procedural issues in Kains apprehension and booking which creates a legal technicality for the criminals eventual release. In turn, the lawyer for the wounded Kain then sues the victims of his crime for injuries incurred on their property. Ultimately, the victims lose their case, are mandated by the judge to have their dog put to sleep, and is forced to sell their house in order to cover legal fees and damages awarded to Kain. The thief then buys the victims house with the money awarded him from the lawsuit. Now this Shakespearean example would only take place in California, but it illustrates my point. Did the criminals release violate the spirit of administering justice to the guilty? Yes. Was it within the legal parameters of Kains lawyers to defend their client? In some states the answer is probably yes, but was it ethically justified? As I said in the beginning, just because you can do it, doesnt make it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerSix Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 ---------------- On 1/4/2004 11:18:32 PM tankhokie wrote: rangersix, ... although i don't remember why, they did say avoid chopper's at all costs....hmmm ---------------- I agree with you about the helicopters. My MECH INF Company (I was the CO XO at the time) was attached to 1-37 Armor during Desert Storm. In a fight with an Armored Brigade of the Tawalkana Division of the Iraqi Republican Guard, a section of Apaches was mistakenly flying in support of our brigade moving toward the objective. The birds were less than 200 meters directly in front of my track. I saw the Hellfires launch. Unbeknownst to us at the time, the AH-64s were out of sector and accidentally shot up four M1s moving into the helicopters kill zones. They then disappeared, never to be heard from again. To this day (at least that I am aware of) no one knows where those Apaches came from. The US losses that evening were officially attributed to enemy mines, RPG-7s and T-72 tank fire. Amazingly, no one died other a few cuts, bruises and broken rib. A very weird but fascinating night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Why not save yourself the grief and avoid E-Bay altogether? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Ranger, surely you have been involved in a sealed bid process at some time. A large majority of business contracts involving major dinero are handled in a sealed bid process. You never know beforehand what anyone else is bidding. You obviously want everyone to conduct bidding as in a public auction, with everything in the open. Ebay had decided that both methods can be used, ethically, as long as Rome gets the coin that is their due. They allow rachet autobidding on both their site and through sniper programs, such as auctionsniper.com. It may be that you are bidding only a single unit above the minimum bid, negating Ebay's racheting feature. Either way, whether you use a rachet bid or not, the seller benefits from accepting any higher bid. Again, those buyers and sellers that like an ethical, all cards on the table, auction are better served on ubid.com. Then again...this is kind of like the chicken or the egg discussion; which came first - the unethical bidding or Ebay? In the beginning, there was Klipsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Hello: I have used the proxy bidding and have had some success. I have seen too much bidding that can only be shill to raise the price. Where I do not like sniping is when you have studied the item, or are familiar with its value and proxy bid only to be sniped by another dollar. I also see some of the same items come up again so I know there's some B.S. involved. Builder earlier noted that he would not snipe or war with a Forum member. I give him credit and praise for that. The only drawback is our eBay names can be different than here. On eBay I am dodge73challenger. It might help so that we don't shaft each other if we noted our eBay name. win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 What should we do if the seller is a forum member? Bid it up like crazy because he's one of us, or snub the auction because he didn't offer it here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Win, I agree with you on helping out fellow forum members! Ranger, I think a Capehart PP 2a3 monoblock tube amp is a good illustration of what you detest about hidden snipe bids. In the last two hours, the amp went from $160 to a final selling price in the range of $480. One factor to remember in support of snipes, however, is the realization that all Ebay transactions heavily favor the seller. Unless a seller is near you, you will never be able to go kick the tires, take the amp for a spin, check the tubes on a calibrated Hickok, poke at the caps, trot it up on a variac, observe the care with which the amp was assembled. The myriad of details that you would investigate before buying even a new product from your local retail store are all out the window with Ebay. In reading your posts more carefully, I saw you do use the Ebay rachet. I have only won one item out of fifteen I used the Ebay rachet with, mainly because I was bidding on covetted gear that I could and would not pay top dollar(I'm cheaper.) I actually have had more success working through Audiogon, I think because folks on Audiogon are either cleaning out their closets, or upgrading replacement gear and want the current stuff out the door. In the end, Ebay can be a poke in the pig, so I'm less likely to pay top $$. Everyone I have made major purchase from(>$300) has guaranteed buyback if I was not happy on all transactions outside of Ebay ; I just love window shopping and trying to snag the occasional great deal on Ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 The only gamble seems to be how much you are willing to pay. The only strategy seems to be when that amount is entered. Even the ratchet system could be considered unethical in the "spirit of the auction" purists. E-bay has chosen to not stick with the traditional auction format of keeping an item open until there are no more bidders, and so the rules have changed. I have never used a sniping service, but I have won an auction with the bid placed in the last second of the auction and it was THRILLING. I have also lost items to snipers, but that should be considered my fault since I didn't bid enough in the first place. Strategy is ethical. Playing by the rules is ethical. If you disagree with the rules or the ethics of the people playing by those rules, the issue is with the rulemakers. Playing with only the subset of rules that you find personally appropriate may make you feel like a better person, but it won't help you win auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Mungkman, thanks for saying what I couldn't! I got sniped on a rebuilt Dynaco Mk IV last night in St. Louis, but no complaints here. I didn't truely need it, someone wanted it more, and they paid $40 + shipping more than I was willing to pay. No matter the ethics, the same result would have occurred if the auction went on for another week, or if it was a live auction - once past my highest bid, I'm done. Out of curiousity, Ranger, did you have to take one or two ethics classes at ND? We HAD to take one at SLU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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