NOSValves Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Okay we got the cosmetic thread out of the way thanks everyone for your comments. Somehow I mentioned pricing with a good measure of distain in reply. I need some more opinions. After adding these up I'm pretty depressed and just about ready to say this just isn't worth it. So some people said that 2K put me in the price range of some heavy hitters. So I ask who and what models ?? Now keep in mind these are Mono blocks and when it come to powerful amps this makes a huge difference (jeck I think it makes a difference in all amps) so no Stereo KT88's there not in the same league or Category ! Come on all you shoppers give me my Competition. By the way unless cost can be cut 2K is absolutely not a reachable figure ! I'm worth more then hamburger flipping pay ...... Well at least I hope so. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I can go down to chinatown and try to find a sweatshop for ya (been watching Law & order far too long). I'll start with VAC Auricle for $2k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 You ARE a heavy hitter. If these things sound as good as your MK IIIs then as far as I'm concerned -- you have no REAL competitors at that price point. I can only think of two sets of monoblocks out there that compete with yours. 1) Quicksilvers, and 2) The AES Sixpacs. Either of these have more polish, but fall short in performance to what you are offering. The Quickies are nice, but don't have the bells and whistles you are offering (individual bias controls, triode/ultralinear switching, tube rectification, "true" tube rolling capability, etc.). The Sixpacs are cool, but are basically higher powered monoblock versions of the standard AE-25 Superamp. Dennis would have to create a Signature DJH version of these things to get them to where you are at -- and they would probably run about $3000. I think you should just relax and not worry about it. It'll come together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I'll add Quicksilver Mid Mono $1895 pr Horn Mono $1595pr Mini-Mite Mono $998pr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Yikes, I forgot about the Auricle. Sweet knockoff of the Marantz 8B. Stereo amp though -- doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Not trying to offend but you should expect competition from any second hand CJ, VTL, Mark 3's, Airtight ATM-1's, or even QUAD's. These companies and amplifiers have world wide recognision and outside the forum, your product will be just a "no-name" product with 0 resale value. Better to sell modified MK3's instead ( for their famous iron). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 ---------------- On 1/15/2004 1:50:07 AM DeanG wrote: Yikes, I forgot about the Auricle. Sweet knockoff of the Marantz 8B. Stereo amp though -- doesn't count. ---------------- Craig is still no Kevin Hayes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Ah, but you are forgetting something important. He can advertise these AS fully tweaked and decked out MK IIIs on a new chassis. I've heard Craig's MK IIIs, and I would have NO problem shelling out $2K for a set of these -- and probably will. BTW, do you know the retail price of my QUADs? Try $4300 on a good day. They can be picked up used at half that -- but with no warranty or hand holding service. Besides, most of the amps you listed don't come up often enough to worry about it. Besides, like Craig said, he's not interested in competing with these companies, or cranking them out night and day. When these get done and ready to go, they will be made for the select half dozen or so who have the brains the ****** up a pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 ---------------- On 1/15/2004 2:12:57 AM DeanG wrote: Ah, but you are forgetting something important. He can advertise these AS fully tweaked and decked out MK IIIs on a new chassis. I've heard Craig's MK IIIs, and I would have NO problem shelling out $2K for a set of these -- and probably will. BTW, do you know the retail price of my QUADs? Try $4300 on a good day. They can be picked up used at half that -- but with no warranty or hand holding service. Besides, most of the amps you listed don't come up often enough to worry about it. Besides, like Craig said, he's not interested in competing with these companies, or cranking them out night and day. When these get done and ready to go, they will be made for the select half dozen or so who have the brains the ****** up a pair. ---------------- Dean, I do believe you are on the right track after I paly with the scotts and HEAR the differnce of the mark III's ya can most probably put ME on the list too Smilin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 ---------------- On 1/15/2004 2:26:19 AM smilin wrote: ---------------- On 1/15/2004 2:12:57 AM DeanG wrote: Ah, but you are forgetting something important. He can advertise these AS fully tweaked and decked out MK IIIs on a new chassis. I've heard Craig's MK IIIs, and I would have NO problem shelling out $2K for a set of these -- and probably will. BTW, do you know the retail price of my QUADs? Try $4300 on a good day. They can be picked up used at half that -- but with no warranty or hand holding service. Besides, most of the amps you listed don't come up often enough to worry about it. Besides, like Craig said, he's not interested in competing with these companies, or cranking them out night and day. When these get done and ready to go, they will be made for the select half dozen or so who have the brains the ****** up a pair. ---------------- Dean, I do believe you are on the right track after I paly with the scotts and HEAR the differnce of the mark III's ya can most probably put ME on the list too Smilin ---------------- I am already on the list. The Mark III's I picked up are at Craigs right now waiting to get the infamous NOSValves super mods My Corns will soon be singing even better than they already are with the 299D (NOSValves) That I am running right now. After I get the chance to listen to them and the 272 on the CW's for a while I will likely be ponying up the $2K for a set of those new babies Craig is incubating. Craig don't let a select few bum you out about your well thought out amps and efforts. You have a lot of people in your corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Craig, For someone like me these kind of discussions are an exercise in frustration. The techincal stuff just doesnt give me an impression of how they sound so it is difficult for me to compare to other companies. My benchmark for tube amp pricing is Tsakiridis. They tend to make other items look awfully expensive for what they are. I know they have produced an uprated version of my old amps with tube rectification and all that for very little money (about 850 Euros from memory) but how these compare to yours I have no idea. The originals that I had were around 450 Euros. Even with the $/Euro rate moving so massively in your favour (now $1.26 to the Euro) this does seem to make yours look expensive, but, we may be comparing apples to oranges here. Interestingly they have eskewed the all wood chasis on these models for metal with the wood being relegated to the front panel. Just for reference these are EL34/6550/KT88 based monoblocks with user adjustable biasing. I seem to remember a figure of 45 or 50 wpc with the KT88's I keep pestering Tsakiridis to get all the new models up on their site. To date - no joy - but as soon as I succeed I will let you all know. Overall - maybe $1,999 could float - competition over there seems fierce. How many are you hoping to sell? Bearing in mind the complete unknown on the re-sale value would you be in a position to offer some kind of trade in against future / better models? One of the most comforting things about Tsakiridis is that he will give you the full price back when trading in for something better (excluding the tubes). I have used this facility for both my previous amps and the pre-amp I originally bought from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Craig, every new product goes through a very tough and sometimes disappointing period of time to develop it and refine it. Don't get disappointed too soon. It's hard work to refine and develop something like high end audio monobloc amplifiers to compete in the market place. If it wasn't hard work, there'd be a lot more others doing it. Building these right, may not mean building the best you know how, and that may be a hard thing for you to swallow, but it's a reality. You need to find your niche, and niche is a good word because you're not looking for a mass market. So just give it time, time to develop. You're doing the right thing by asking questions, now give yourself time to think, plan, make changes and everything will fall into place. You'll need to put yourself into this project for a longer period of time. By the way, in the 2K price range, aesthetics are going to be very important to me, so something really sharp looking and unique I think would help. The aesthetic design is as important as the mechanical and electrical. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I think Greg hit the nail on the head. There will be enough forum members interested in them to sell all you want, but. They will have to look sharp since resale will be a problem and most buyers will have to show case them for life. A couple of hundred more for some really great aesthetics is probably the answer. Say $2200.00 in a chromed form with quality wood and switches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Greg, Thanks you very wise advise. I haven't shelved the Idea yet. But adding up the cost just isn't going to allow me to hit the price point I was hoping and made me really frustrated. All the feedback in both these threads has been great ! Keep it coming. I personally do not know of a true competitor in this area but I have to get the cost down some how. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Pay yourself at the rate of 43 cents an hour, like the Chinese, and that should help a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Paul, Your not to far from the truth !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Craig, That's what driven so much business to China. However, since your goal is quality not quantity, you may still have enough supporters here to charge whatever reasonable price you can. After all, the worst they can say is no and your right where you are today. I look forward to hearing this beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Craig, if you personally don't know of a competitor for these amps, then don't lower your price. Instead, look for ways to streamline to cut the amount of time it takes to build. Because you're not mass producing, this means just the little things that can do to cut your time putting these together. Also, you'll get faster as time goes on. I don't know much about the parts and pricing of parts for these units, but there may be alternatives that can help lower YOUR cost, not lower the price of the amps. You need to increase your margin so that these are viable for you to consider building. Hold your price if there's no real competition. Any competition that is out there will probably be raising prices as time goes on and you may find yourself in a better position. Market them on your website, talk to people here on the forum to let them know what you have to offer, and a little business will come your way. You'll continue to refine these, and as they improve, your current price will be more and more appealing to people. My advice to you would be completely different if you were intending to sell a bunch of these. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Craig, keep it up! Six or seven years (I forget) ago I bought some mail-order-only Sound Valves M60 (60w ea 6550 switchable) monoblocks that look very much like yours (except all metal chrome chassis, metal cage, and the guts, of course). The company apparently is now out of business, I think, at least the URL is dead. The amps, however, are still very much alive. Granted that they were/are not hand-made and therefore may not be as good in quality of performance as yours, but I paid $1000 each at the time, so that is right on the money with "your" competition (I presume your pricing is for a pair - forgive me if I'm wrong) based on raw wattage. They later went up to $2500 a pair. It is sort of risky buying a completely unknown product, but I wanted big watt glass and couldn't afford anything else, so I took the risk and it worked out. So there are people like me who take these risks out "there". If you offer a money back guarantee for a given period (I would say 30 days), then I would think that you could sell enough of these things to make a living, especially with an internet site of your own taking visa cards, etc. I for one would be interested; hand made is a good thing. Sort of like buying a painting when you know the artist; makes it all the better. Best of luck and keep on going. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Man thanks for the pep talk guy's. I've been listening to them all day with some KT66 installed running UT mode and I got to say these things sound great ! I just have to find a way to get the chassis pre punched and ready and the it really will not be that bad of a deal. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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