Is monster cable really truely better? Honestly?

[chuckears]

I don't give a good goddam if nobody else hears the differences with different cables or not.

I hear it, and I'm willing to pay for it.

And if this forum is partly about giving advice to others, read my previous post, and find out for yourself. You might find a difference in sound with different cables; it depends on the synergy between ALL of your components...

Admittedly, I've noticed the biggest changes with different interconnects; speaker cables have a smaller impact, but the difference is there, IF your components allow for a revealing enough signal.

[Grand11]

^Vast majority of the "percieved difference" when switching to new cable is that the ends of your old cable have oxidized or worn. This is especially true with bare wire. That build up will effect current transfer, and when you switch to new wire: BAM! Clean connections and a sudden improvement.

The sad truth is that you could have gotten the sound improvment for free with a little work. On bare wire, just trim the end then strip out some fresh copper. On a more elaborate cable with a gold-tip connector, grab the wife's jewlery polish and give it a good shine. A quick clean-up will make any old cable sound like new all over again.

[Griffinator]

First off, there's real hard science that refutes this idea that somehow cheap 16 gauge lamp cord (or even heavy duty 10-2 or 8-2 electrical wire) from the local hardware store (typically 6-strand copper) is better than well-made speaker wire (fine strand, usually several hundred strands in a typical 12 gauge)

That science, as put so eloquently by a guy at Belden cable, is that more surface area = less resistance. Less resistance = more power from amp to speakers. More power from amp to speakers = more headroom = better dynamic output from the amp.

For all you who loudly proclaim that expensive speaker wire is a waste of money, that piece of science is not arguable.

It's simple physics: Electrons gravitate towards the surface of a metal path. The more surface area you provide, the easier the path is to travel.

What is arguable, OTOH, is all the other outrageous claims speaker wire makers throw out - the hypespeak.

You find me a piece of lamp cord or electrical cord that uses more than 10 strands of copper, and I'll withdraw the objection. Until then, better go back and do some homework, because you're dead wrong. I've seen people using 8 gauge electrical cord on their systems that had a total of 5 strands of copper. I played the A/B testing game with them on their own systems with Monster XP (the cheap-*** 16 gauge Monster cable) - they were sold instantly. More power, better transient dynamics, more coherent soundstage. All it took was some extra copper strands to make it happen.

I don't care if it's Monster, Mogami, Canare, or a host of other brands, you will benefit from replacing your cheap zip cord with well-designed fine-strand copper speaker wire.

[Griffinator]

One more thing:

It is noteworthy, after reviewing my rant, that on extremely high end dedicated amplifiers (you know, the monoblocks that cost $6000 and up) that have incredibly high damping factors (designed to minimize the effects of the dynamic ohm loads presented by the drivers) that a subtle difference in resistance created by speaker wire would not be appreciated, simply because the amp has sufficiently well-designed circuitry to overcome the higher resistance that thick-stranded zip cord presents them.

For those of you that do not posess such triumphs of audio engineering, the rant very much applies. Myself included (hell, just look at my sig - my tastes in audio equipment far outstrip my budget for said equipment)

What those of you who experience "shrill highs" and/or "bigger bass" with products like Original Monster Cable are hearing is all the subtle flaws in your amplifier. It's amazing how easily a well-designed speaker wire can reveal the shortcomings in your amp/speaker combination.

[formica]

A 16-gauge wire will have a higher resistance than a large 8-gauge wire even if it contains much fewer strands. The drawback of an 8 gauge with 5 strands is that it will inflexible and unpractical.

Resistance and capacitance are the governing characteristics for audio cables but these can be easily measured... therefore are not part of the wire manufacturers claims to superiority.

Rob

[Griffinator]

----------------

On 1/20/2004 5:31:38 PM formica wrote:

A 16-gauge wire will have a higher resistance than a large 8-gauge wire even if it contains much fewer strands. The drawback of an 8 gauge with 5 strands is that it will inflexible and unpractical.

Resistance and capacitance are the governing characteristics for audio cables but these can be easily measured... therefore are not part of the wire manufacturers claims to superiority.

Rob

----------------

You're still ignoring the physics. I can get more electrons down 350 fine strands of copper with less resistance than you can with 5 thick ones. I have more total surface area. That's the reality of electron flow.

[wheelman]

Onkyo probally sucks thats why i didn't hear any problems with harman kardon. Of course some people may like the cold over the warm, but not many. Not to shabby for home theater though. Although i prefer a warm sound for home theater too just like a theater is really. I prefer a smoother sounding cable. And i never been to a theater where the sound was cold and bright. It was always rich and full with a warm voice and smooth treble. So if you have a cold amp you would benefit from a smoother warmer cable.

[FirebirdTN]

I think the REAL question that needs to be asked, is why even bother answering the origional posters question? With a post count of 24, making a post that has been debated many many MANY times, probably since the invention of the loudspeaker, only never to be heard from again within this thread.

Flame bait.

-Alan

[Griffinator]

----------------

On 1/20/2004 5:52:59 PM wheelman wrote:

Onkyo probally sucks thats why i didn't hear any problems with harman kardon.

----------------

Dude, the amps I referred to that would be unaffected by speaker wire resistance are things like SET amps, which have no feedback, and super-high-end monoblock solid-state amps that overcome feedback with huge damping factors.

My Onkyo doesn't qualify in either category, and neither does your HK. Both are traditional PP solid-state designs with decent, but not great, damping factors.

If high-gauge multistranded copper wire makes your system sound shrill, you're hearing the feedback from your PP amps. There is plenty of documentation available all over the internet about this problem. I'm not going to try and explain it all to you in a short paragraph.

[prodj101]

----------------

On 1/20/2004 1:18:01 AM minn_male42 wrote:

"Well, with the MIT cables I got there was a measurable difference with the rat shack SPL meter of up to 1.5 db (especially on some of the shrill highs the monster original cables seem to have). Something with the capacitors in them I suppose. "

you fail to understand the whole point of a balanced double blind test.....

the most obvious difference in to a listener is one of loudness....

basically...people perceive..."louder is better"....

if your cables play "louder"... you might perceive them as being "better"....

a true double blind test would equalize the levels of the tested cables and would allow a true "quality" test of the cables...

if you are talking about attenuating certain frequencies..."shrill highs"... personally, i would have a problem with that type of cable that changed the output of the amplifier..... and the source material...

if you have to rely on a speaker cable to "correct" problems earlier in the signal path then you have very poor components....

----------------

sorry minmale, I forgot to post that the 1.5 db difference was meaning that the highs were 1.5 db softer, not louder. I suppose thats kind of critical....

[Gary W. Graley]

Not sure what BRAND I have but one such speaker cable I bought turned GREEN in a very short time, and that sucked! Don't know if the sound actually degraded but man you've got to think it didn't help!

So now I have some OFC stuff that is keeping the wires at least CLEAN looking and to me that is a benefit.

Right now I've just upgraded my surrounds from SB1 to the SB2 speakers and ordered some 12ga SoundKing from Parts Express as I failed to find any 12ga wire in my area. I've heard that the SoundKing stuff works as well as Monster, I'll see soon. Right now I've 16ga feeding the surrounds on about a 35' run per speaker, I really didn't want to go that small but was all I had available at the time. I did get some 12ga but a small spool, enough to do my Mains, RF7s and RC7 center...

Short story growing longer...

I started out single wiring my mains, then went to bi-wire them, bought some esoteric wire "twisted solid" something or other...well there were four wires within, so I thought heck, just bi-wire with that one cable...lol...NOW then I REALLY heard a difference! TOO small a gauge wire, my RF7s sounded like they were shrunk! I quickly put the 12ga back to the Low side and then put the set of twisted wires to the High side and voila, nice open sounding speakers! When that spool of SoundKing wire arrives, after making my runs to the surrounds, I'm going to swap out those twisty pairs for a chunker of 12ga and listen to the difference, if any.

G2

[Fish]

I just wanted to 2nd the observation that my cheap depot wire(garage set up) did turn green quickly.Does that affect sound,dunno but the new little more expensive wire has held up better.I got it at Wallmart in the car stereo department,14 guage,50 ft rolls,10 bucks,I put it against my monster xp(bedroom set up) anytime.Really,check it out,this is very good wire,ox free,very flexable,fine strand,made by royal cable.

[jjputz]

- my 2cents worth

I run a scanning electron microscope with an X-ray attachment at work so a couple of years ago I compared 16 gauge electric Wire to 16 Gauge speaker wire.

Neither had a measurable amount of contaminents in them.

The speaker wire copper strands was about 75% thicker than the regular electric wire as I remember

If I get a chance I'll do it again but I don't have any "monster" wire.

You could use a Volt meter to measure resistance.

I've "heard" that the thicker wire strands supposedly transmit lower frequencies better - if anyone knows why let me know.

[om13934]

Thanks for your courtesy Alan. I'm sure you have a whole lot more experience and knowledge with only 46 posts. Forum members, I motion to disregard alan and his statement. Second anyone?

[Grand11]

You're still ignoring the physics. I can get more electrons down 350 fine strands of copper with less resistance than you can with 5 thick ones. I have more total surface area. That's the reality of electron flow.

Actually you're making a big assumption when you say that strandard wire will supply more surface area: that the wire is bare with no connectors and being fit into cheep contact clips. Remember the only point where more surface area matters is the point of contact between the wire and the component. Electrons flow quite easily through solid copper as quantum physics states it's 90% empty space anyway.

Spend a couple dollars and put some banana plugs or spade lugs on the end and now your advantage is gone. A Banana plug will contact across a large surface area, and when crimped down also applies pressure to a large surface area of the cable. Heck, with interconnect cable this is strictly required.

So back to the lamp cable analogy: If I drop 50 cents into some spade lugs to increase the surface area, where's the advantage?

[formica]

----------------

On 1/20/2004 5:48:38 PM Griffinator wrote:

You're still ignoring the physics. I can get more electrons down 350 fine strands of copper with less resistance than you can with 5 thick ones. I have more total surface area. That's the reality of electron flow.

----------------

Which rule of physics says that? I'm not sure where that info about wire's resistance comes from, but in general it will vary a maximum of ±10% when going from stranded to solid core (of the same gauge). The resistance difference between 16 gauge and 8 gauge is in the 600% range ?!? You should be principally looking at cross-sectional area and not just internal surface (ie: skin) area.

Even if you take the worst 8guage wire combined with the best 16guage (both in copper)... you are still looking at over 500% less resistance with the larger wire. For example, check out this Copper Wire Chart

Regardless of, most of these resistances are insignificant in comparison to that presented by the speaker itself. Perhaps Roger Russell's Speaker Wire History may make an interesting read... Some may remember R. Russell as former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh.

Rob

----------------

Definition: The electrical resistance of a wire would be expected to be greater for a longer wire, less for a wire of larger cross sectional area, and would be expected to depend upon the material out of which the wire is made. Experimentally, the dependence upon these properties is a straightforward one for a wide range of conditions, and the resistance of a wire can be expressed as

R = (resistivity-of-material * length)/cross-section-area

----------------

[chuckears]

F*%k the physics... trust your own ears.

If you want confirmation from experienced Klipsch-o-philes for the conclusion you wanted to begin with (and which will conveniently keep you from spending much for cables), it looks like a good portion of the board members will help you out. Whatever you go with, if you are satisfied with it, then don't worry about it.

If upgrade-itis ever bites you, or if you end up with very revealing sources or pre- and amplification, and still choose to throw in cheap cables, you're the one who is listening to it, and if you're happy, OK. But the truth is, some better components get you so close to musical nirvana, and bring a performance almost heart-breakingly into your house, cable changes are going to be much more revealing.

...And the terrific thing about Klipsch speakers is that (especially the Heritage, Legend, and Reference series) they will help in revealing the musicality, or reality, of whatever source material you're sending to them. They will be among the last items you would need to upgrade to acheive the aforementioned state of bliss.

[FirebirdTN]

om13934

Okay, I appologize for my comment. I do NOT have the experience that everyone else here does. but I do posses the knowledge. I have just been lurking around ALOT of forums within the past 6 months to a year, and if its one discussion that will heat things up more than any other, this is it.

And since I had not seen even one reply from you since the start of this thread, I mistakenly took you for trying to "stir the pot". My sincerest appologies.

Now, even with my very little experience, but 15+ years of electronics knowledge, if you want me to share my opinion, here it is:

Question: Is there a difference amoung speaker cables:

Answer: YES. You can measure the many parameters of speaker cables with test equipment, and see an obvious difference between differing cables.

The more importsnt question: Can you *HEAR* the difference amoung cables:

Answer: Cannot be answered easily. For the majority of the population, the answer would be No, they cannot distinguish one type from another. However, it *may* be possible that a small percentage with exceptional hearing might hear a difference. But how can you prove it? You can't do it easily. Everyones hearing is different. Just because I don't hear a difference, doesn't mean I can without a doubt say that Joe Blow can't either, without a serious in-depth hearing test of Joe Blow, to see just how well his sensitivity, range, and frequency respone are and comparing that to the subtle differences between cables, to see if there is enough difference that Joe has the sensitivity to hear.

In my case, I cannot hear the difference between one cable and the next, and am generally of the "non-believers" camp. But since everyones hearing is different, I won't completely rule out the possibility. I know what my hearing is like, but I cannot argue what someone else's hearing is like.

-Alan

[Bruinsrme]

We all agree the fatter the cable the less resistance it will have.

So a cable with 350 micro strand will have more surface area than a 8 ga wire therefor less resistance.

Now with that said, is the chemistry of the cable or wire important to the performance.

No brainer here. some metals conduct better than others.

But on a 5 foot even a 10 foot run how much of a difference is it going to make? Uhhmmmm

Is that $2000 speaker wire going to bring more or less audio out? Uhmmmmm

I have looked at a lot of cables and Monster is adequate but their construction quality control is shotty.

Bluejeans cable, kimber cable, MIT and Better cables claim to be better. They are constructed with more attention to detail than that of the monster cables, JMO.

How much do you want to spend on cable?

take a look at the cables we have mentioned.

In the end I would not truly recommend Monster because their price point and workmanship is lacking behind others at or near the same price.

[om13934]

Apology accepted Alan, I'm sorry for insulting you. As for starting this thread, I hope no one gets too angry. After reading all the posts, I went down to Home Depot last night, and bought 80ft. of pure copper 12ga. lamp cord. (honestly, I made the decision to go with lamp cord because they didn't have any white speaker wire) Thanks for all your posts. Even if the debate gets heated, it makes for an interesting read.