Theory in progress......

[maxg]

The following is just the result of a series of thought processes I have gone through in recent weeks and not meant to up"set" anyone.

I cant escape the feeling whenever I read the threads on amp topologies that there is something inherently wrong with using an amp to flavour the music - whether that be enhancing the mid-range, boosting the bass or curbing the treble.

In the simple Max book on audio (which, if ever written would be about 10 pages - better call it a pamphlet methinks) the job of an amp is to amplify without adding or subtracting anything from the music.

That music benefits from flavouring of any kind I am not discussing here.

What I am saying is that any flavouring should come, in theory, from the combination of recording / source player / pre-amp initially - this should then be passed and increased in power by the amps, with no further change, to the speakers for them to add their own colours to the mix and out into a room that in turn does its own thing to the music.

In other words I get the feeling that using an amp to extract your prefered flavour is somehow missing the point, fixing the wrong thing, W.H.Y.

The same logic, of course, can be applied to cabling. If you are really looking for cabling with a sonic signature then there is probably something wrong elsewhere that would yield a better result be being fixed directly.

Of course, as someone who is running EL34 tubes in Ultra-Linear mode and someone who has spent some time choosing the "right cables" I can hardly claim to be in the "my amp just amplifies" camp but having gone through the upgrades of speakers and front end I do feel that in many ways I got to the sound I did independently of the amp, if not the cables.

Here-in, if any of the above is true, I see a fallacy in using low powered SET amps except in cases where you truely only listen at low levels through very high sensitivity speakers.

Above and beyond all else I get the impression that SET amps are chosen BECAUSE of the flavour they impart as opposed to DESPITE it. I see this as being the wrong path (I know right and wrong are a bit emotive here - the lesser benefit path perhaps). Get the source and speakers (and room actually)right and the sound should be right without the compromise of an amp with barely enough power to run a torch.

God - that will go down like a lead balloon - to post or not to post - hmmm.

well its just a theory...

[bkrop]

Hmmm, hold on while(whilst) I grab some popcorn!

[hwatkins]

Well said Max - I would think that most will take your message as intended - your opinion. I too have struggled with the same issues as I look at system make up and have decided that I would have to have both more room and more money to have the set ups that reflect various flavors that I appreciate for different sources.

That said I have to compromise on all levels - speaker placement, amplification, size of speakers, heat disipation, etc. One common issue is that I tend to like (dare I say need) the higher power to make the compromises easily integrate.

2 cents

[sheltie dave]

Max, "boldly going where no man has gone before"

I have seen some great SET systems - and the majority have either been biamped with a subwoofer, or some variation thereof. The most vocal SET owners in St. Louis are in agreement that their amps have known deficiencies in the area of bass response.

The push pull contingent on the Klipsch forum also admits that the majority of PP amps have shortcomings in the bass department when compared to solid state.

The clinching argument for me when I looked at getting into tube amplification was economics. I looked at entry into a good SET vs a good PP, and noted that I would be spending about double for SET, plus I would have to radically reshape my CD collection and defer listening to most of the rock and hard stuff I so enjoyed in younger days.

The money I did not spend when buying a Scott 299c I used to buy Dean's Quick 60s, and they were great. They could do 90 to 95% of what SET is at low volume, and they came close to matching my friend's 105 wpc on the heavy stuff.

I do find it baffling the SET group is so vocal here, as most tube roads will eventually pass through SET ownership for those who have money to spend. Klipsch and quality are synonymous - and SET amps, on the whole, are much easier to build and retain quality than PP. I would say the percentage of Klipsch owners who own SET amps is easily a 3 to 4 fold factor higher than any other mass produced group of speaker owners.

All in all, it is sweet kicking back and listening to good music with any tube amp and Klipsch.

[Parrot]

Brave post, Max.

There is a lot of system tuning involved in places where neutrality should be sought. For example, think of the tens of thousands of man hours involved in designing and manufacturing speakers, amps, preamps, and source players, and then having someone override it all with a pair of "tuned" interconnects or speaker wires.

"Sweet" is a good word to watch out for. Not all music is supposed to have a "sweet" flavor added to it. "Musical" is another word that can cover up a host of ills. It essentially means, "forget about accuracy--I find this coloration pleasing." "Magical" can mean about anything and so is an almost worthless descriptor.

If you have a system that makes harshly-recorded CDs sound pleasing, there's something very colored in your system. What's a system like that going to do with a well-made recording? Are you going to have a recording that is "hyper-real" or "better than real life"?

[maxg]

5 responses and no bullet holes - we are doing well!!

Mdeneen,

I think i have the jist of what you saying, however, if it is agreed that SET amps flavour (even - it is the reason for their being - or remaining) then the argument holds. Why do you want the flavour to come from your amp and not from those other places, where, according to my loose theory, it belongs?

[Parrot]

----------------

On 1/21/2004 8:51:14 AM sheltie dave wrote:

I do find it baffling the SET group is so vocal here, as most tube roads will eventually pass through SET ownership for those who have money to spend. Klipsch and quality are synonymous - and SET amps, on the whole, are much easier to build and retain quality than PP. I would say the percentage of Klipsch owners who own SET amps is easily a 3 to 4 fold factor higher than any other mass produced group of speaker owners.

----------------

It's because without a 1 watt/1 meter/104dB rated speaker, a low-watt amp doesn't have a ghost of a chance. You'll find a few but very few SET advocates raving about the sound coming out of an 87dB rated speaker. The numbers of SET fans here in the Klipsch Forum is extremely disproportionate to the number who exist in other audio areas.

[maxg]

Paul,

This being the Klipsch forum I would say that it is to be expected that the proportion of low power SET amp users is going to be higher. Similarly the proportion of vinyl lovers is probably higher in the 2 channel forum than in, say, the General Forum.

I also want to stress that I am not in any camp on this. I am merely musing on a train of thought I have gone through - devoid of actual experience with SET amps in the main.

That my logic fails with the concept of SET is also no guide to what I may or may not do in the future. This is why my tagline is as it is.

Other examples of logic failures I live with:

1. Cables make a sonic difference. I have no idea how or why - I just think they do from experience.

2. Dragging a rock around the dents and bumps in a piece of vinyl gives off better sound that a laser reading digital information off a shiny metalic disk.

3. Tubes, a technology from the 1930's or so sounds better to my ears than an all digital amp from 2001 (the Sharp as it happens).

There are many more.....

[sfogg]

Max,

" I see this as being the wrong path (I know right and wrong are a bit emotive here - the lesser benefit path perhaps)."

I'd suggest it is the wrong path for you... others will have different priorities. After all most people want to enjoy their systems and if this path works for them that is great.

" I get the impression that SET amps are chosen BECAUSE of the flavour they impart as opposed to DESPITE it."

I have a running theory that is more or less the same as that. It isn't the supposed lack of distortion of SETs it is *because* of the distortions that some like them so much. This is born out by the path most SET amp owners appear to take... that being starting with a higher power SET and they work there way down to lower power SETs. You see it said all the time that high power SETs don't have the 'magic' of lower power SET amps. Of course the lower the power SET used the harder you have to run it for the same SPL level. The harder it is run the more distortions it is going to produce. Same thing guitar players do with their tube equipment... they run it hard specifically to get the 'tone' they are looking for.

Here is the thing though... for a preference point I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If one enjoys their music more through this path that is cool.

As I see it the problem comes in when the 'audiophile' decides to take the SET path. They are so conditioned that distortion 'is the devil' they tend to BS themselves about what they like about the amps to better fit the 'audiophile' mold instead of just not worrying about it and enjoying it for what it is.

To be honest I think the same thing occurs to a lesser extent with those that choose PP tube amps in general. They two have specific colorations and instead of just enjoying them for what they are they 'accuracy' argument is always tried to be made. Heck, same thing can occur with SS designs as well. (Is that going to get me in trouble here or what???)

Shawn

[sfogg]

Mdeneen,

"The only problem here is that it is impossible to universally distinguish flavor from not-flavor, or color from not-color."

You can see some colorations/distortions very easily though. If I put a 100hz signal into one amp and what comes out is a 100hz signal and a 200hz signal (2nd order harmonic) 20dB lower that is obvisously something that wasn't in the source and is a coloration/distortion introduced by the amp.

That this distortion/coloration may be pleasing sounding isn't a problem. Where it becomes a problem is in trying to pass it off for something it isn't.

Shawn

[maxg]

Shawn,

You picked up on the line I was least happy with in my original post. I did not want to say right or wrong which is why I tried to mollify it with the bracketted explanation.

Let me try to illustrate with some kind of example:

A given audio lover has a pick-up with a decent arm, phono stage and cartrdige, say the Clearaudio Virtuoso 2. He is running PP tubes, high efficiency speakers etc. etc.

His problem is that the sound is slightly dry, edgy, even digital. Amongst the many possible solutions he could switch to SET amps and get that "lovely warm sound" probably fixing the problem, or, he could swap out the cartridge for another with a warmer presentation.

Imagine that the end result is similar enough for this to be an either/or option.

I would argue that he is better off going for the cartridge root, as, for want of a better phrase, that is where his desired colouration SHOULD be - in other words not in his amps.

I did read the rest of your post. I think we are all merely aiming to get the best possible sound in our listening environments. Such a task involves making compromises. Is SET a compromise too far? Maybe even the easy choice. Could it be that utilizing another route to get to the desired sound provides less restriction whilst providing the same benefits?

I dont know the answers to these questions. I merely ponder them....

[ZAKO]

maxg....As I draw my sword....Have you ever measured the distortion of a speaker? Its very high. Add to that tube, solid state, SET, PP, Now youve added Color. Black is the absence of color White is the presence all color. You can paint your own musicle picture. Some very simple some complex. I havent found a amp or speaker that comes close to live un amplified music.

[Deang]

Pick your poison, pick your favorite color -- and then somehow we end up with music.

[Daddy Dee]

There are some excellent points made above. I'm happy enough to say that listening is a subjective experience. Amp and speaker sound preferences are what they are. Amp and speaker selections are for most folks made in the context of cash resources available to accomplish as much of desired result as possible. People have definite differences in what they perceive as a sweet spot in value. What someone thinks of as a fabulous system is quite different if they are thinking of under 1K or 5K or 10K and above. There is a significant diversity on the forum in economic perspective alone.

It is surprisingly easy to take offense at difference of subjective opinions. It might be argued that folks backing up their claims with test equipment and such is not a subjective opinion.. the test gear says what it says. I think that when listening for enjoyment, best advice is to enjoy.

On admirers of SET, of which I am one.... part of my fascination is admittedly simple minded, like the guy who thought the most impressive invention in history was the Thermos. When questioned about why, he says, "Well, it keeps hot things hot and cold things cold." When questioned further as to why that is so impressive, he says, "Yes, but how do it know???"

With SET, to have magical musical sound coming from a flea powered amp. Now that is impressive, and it sounds good, too. It has been observed by some that SET folks also use PP part time. I don't know if that is representative or not, but for those folks who really love PP, they might take that as a compliment.

It might might also be well to remember, that while Klipsch forum folks are fussing about tube amplifier typologies, there is a whole world out there who thinks Klipsch gear is crap. We should as a forum, get back to being self righteous about the fact that we own Klipsch gear and are obviously superior to those who don't.

[Painful Reality]

What is the only way to make a Martini?

On the philosophy of what should be done, I'm with Deano...

In the worst case, Audiogon is there!

[ZAKO]

DEANG.....Flavor from flavor color from non color. Im shure you can tell the difference From mashed potatoes or horseraddish. You can get poisened from both & not taste the toxen. Some distortions are that way. in amps some harmonic dist. is liked for its ufonics & will poisen you in that you will NOT like amps with very low distortion & viceversa. Sprinkle a little SPICE & you have color.

[Daddy Dee]

I think I'll start a thread asking folks to weigh in on which tube typology most truly reproduces Jimi Hendrix.

[Painful Reality]

This one is easy,

OTL, PP and SET.

[Shockoman]

Max and fellow Forum Members..

As a committed "lurker", I follow this forum on a daily basis. From a technical standpoint, I do not repond much because in most cases I am over my head. This discussion I believe is more "perception" than technical, so I'll jump in.

I have been an audio enthusiast for over 30 years. During that time I have owned my fair share of SS amps along with records and CD's. It is only since I have been reading this forum that I have ventured into the world of tubes and high efficiency speakers and thought about the music on different levels.

My HT is built around Klipsch Reference and 100+ wpc SS. It also served as my music system. I recently went down a completely different path. I bought a PP tube amp and a pair of '80 CWs. I really enjoyed the sound from my HT/Music system. It can "rock the house" if I am in that mood or provide the "sooth the savage beast" tranquility we all somethimes need. It is only since I became involved with this forum did I start to look deeper into the music.

To my ears the tubes and CWs do sound different. Better? For me it's too early to really tell. I like the way the tubes/CW mix sounds. My next challenge will be a playback device, upgraded CD player more than likely. Will it change the way I perceive the music, I hope so. I guess that is what I am trying to acheive....does the music sound better to me. That occurs on at least 2 levels also. How does it sound AND how does it make me feel...

My wife and I have this discussion occasionally. She is happy with the under the cabinet CD player/AM/FM radio the kids get her for Christwas a few years ago. She doesn't get all this "nonsense" I go through. It is now having a bigger effect because the living room is filled with various sized boxes(speakers)and electronics.

Also I now "listen to the music" vs "hear the music". Big difference in my mind. Now I look for soundstage, depth of field, instrument placement etc etc etc...do I enjoy it better? on some levels a resounding YES on another level it has become "work". Will that change over time, I hope so.

I haven't delved into the different circuit topologies and their variations yet. That may come later as my tastes/perceptions or expectation change. All I can say is I listen to the music differently, because my expectations are different now. I guess I am chasing an elusive target. Will different technology interpretations help in that chase, I don't know..I am still growing as are my preceptions and expectations of what the music sounds like and does for me.

Thanks for allowing me to "lurk and grow"

Bob

[JohnA]

" I cant escape the feeling whenever I read the threads on amp topologies that there is something inherently wrong with using an amp to flavour the music - whether that be enhancing the mid-range, boosting the bass or curbing the treble.

In the simple Max book on audio (which, if ever written would be about 10 pages - better call it a pamphlet methinks) the job of an amp is to amplify without adding or subtracting anything from the music."

Hi Max,

This is exactly my stand, as well. If I swap in another amp, and it does not seem to cause a change in sound, I'm happy with that amp (or component) and by default, the one that came out. I don't really WANT an amp that sounds "sweet" or "liquid".

If someone else wants those things, he should be able to save up and have it.