shoe11 Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 To celebrate a recent career advancement, I'm considering a purchase from Wright Sound consisting of the WLA12A pre and one of the following: WPA 3.5 Mono8 Mono10 I listen predominantly at low to moderate levels in a fairly large room and blues/guitar rock is the music of choice. I've never owned a SET amp nor tube amp of any kind for that matter, but plan to take the plunge based on other's comments regarding tubes and the quality/sonic reputation of the Wrights. The 3.5 was my first choice given that I believe it would provide sufficient power for my listening habits and the 2A3 tube appears to me to be the most popular choice amongst the Klipsch SET members on the forum. Having said that looking a little further at the options Mr. Wright has available now the Mono10 has me thinking it might be a better fit. My reasoning behind that would be due to my concerns regarding power requirements for the RF-7's. As provided on Wright's homepage: "The amp runs Class A pp to about 6 watts, Class AB1 through 10 watts, and Class AB2 up to approximately 20 watts peak. The driver (6BL7) is operated as low impedance, high output to handle low mu output triodes (2A3), with a 6SL7 used as a voltage amp/phase inverter." The 10 to me provides a bit more of a safety net in terms of power, but I have no real comments/feedback to go on regarding how this type of amp might sound with 7's. Does anyone on the forum have experience with this amp? If you had 7's based on my listening habits, which do you think would be the best fit? ~shoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Shoe, I'd have to agree with you on the Mono10 over the others with blues/rock which needs a bit more power than a single 2A3 can give you. I haven't heard the amps in question but their reputation is sterling and resale good. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I dunno man, RF-7's are 102dB at 1 watt/meter. This is LaScala-Belle-Klipschorn territory. Ever had a dB meter, know how loud that is? It's loud. If you have speakers that are over 100dB at 1 watt, I don't see a lot of point in giving up anything to get more power. If you're not giving up any desireable qualities to get the extra power, then hey, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 You actually believe 1 watt will give you 102db with RF-7s, or 104db with Klipschorns? It doesn't work that way, honest -- not even close. At any rate, if it were me, in a "big" room, with RF-7s -- I wouldn't get any of those amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 So the specs are not correct? Why would they lie all these years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Tom, With electric bass and vocals a SET amp is challanged at 90-95dbs for headroom. I know that my 300b is even with the Klipschorns. I usually use the SET for jazz at less than 90db which is where it shines. It's just tough to roll that amp in. It weighs about 40lbs. At least with the Mono10 Shoe will nave about 18db of headroom at 90db average volume VS about 5 with the 2A3. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe11 Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 I've followed the majority of the discussions posted here regarding the ability/inability of low power (SET) amps to provide the needed power/dynamic headroom for speakers such as mine so I'm not surprised that the yeas and the nays have started to make their positions known in this one. I'm aware of the fact that the 7's are highly efficient, but also that perhaps the smallest output amps simply don't have enough headroom for my needs. That's why my opinion has shifted to the Mono10's from the 3.5. Even with the 10's I still think perhaps I'm below the output that would be best for my speakers. From my SPL meter I'm generally around 80-85db for day to day use though sometimes going up to the mid-90's once the work day is through. I suspect that at minimum I'd probably be better off with a 30w Class A amp from a well regarded company such as Wright. Exactly who makes those amps is something I'm not quite clear on. From my current Rotel gear looking higher up the performance rung in solid state I find a ton of $1.5 to 2k models to choose from such as Creek, MF, YBA, etc, but when I switch to tubes, beyond the SET amps from Wright, Welborne, and Cary, the few companies that come to mind are CJ, Manley, ASL and Jolida. In the 30-50 watt tube category what other companies should I be researching? I see that Wright has a WPA 50-50 50 watts RMS per channel push-pull power amplifier which would seem to be a good fit. Too bad it's almost $4k. I appreciate the comments. ~shoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Klipsch isn't lying. Those measurments are taken 3 feet away in an anchoic chamber. Get a set of speakers in a room with carpet, curtains, furniture, people, etc -- and you are looking at some serious losses. The majority of room "gain" comes from the bass, but overall -- the room (especially the large room), just soaks up the sound. It takes almost 40 watts through my Klipschorns to get 110db peaks on my meter 9 feet away. Unrelated but related, see the following: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=41347 Shoe -- if you are doing mostly 85db when listening, you can do the 2A3 easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 How often do you listen at 40W and 110db? Just wondering, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I tried my LS with a Scott integrated, spl meter on a tripod at 39 inches, about 18" off the carpeted floor. Cranked up some Santana on the Rega CDP, turned it up till the meter was bouncing around 100-106, measured the input voltage at the crossover with my newish Fluke meter, it was bouncing around at about 2.8 -- 3.2 volts. There's no way I'm going to buy into that being more than 1 or 2 watts. And it's loud, real loud. Backing up 9 or 10 feet does not make it hard to hear. i could hear it out on the street sidewalk or out by the pool just fine. With the doors closed. This was a 222-C, the volume knob was at a little more than one o'clock. So, can this little informal test be criticized? Sure. Totally unscientific. but the numbers are well within the ballpark of what's expected. So, I'm not really heavily experienced at audio at this level, but the truth is I just can't understand where you're coming from with this 30-50 watts stuff. If you crank 30 watts into my LS indoors for any length of time and you're going to be needing hearing aids soon. Next time my family is away for a few hours I'm going to try this again with the Khorns using my scope for the voltmeter, it'll show me if there peaky stuff that's not in this ballpark OK. If the Scott doesn't have the balls I have a 100W per side Nakamichi that does. IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, others may differ, all that jazz. {Edit:} I should add that my LS are pretty fresh, new diaphragms in the drivers, new K-33, new ALK crossovers, maybe they're a little hot, but not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Tom, Did Erik ever send you those Magnequest grid chokes? I couldn't really use them, and he wouldn't want to send them to me unless I had a use for them. Which I totally agree with. I told him to send them to you. 'Cause you needed them. What happened to him anyway? did he evaporate? How is your amp project coming along, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 that project has been slow due to lack of spendable funds. I'm ready to order the boxes and sockets and hardware stuff. I've determined that I can get good PS trannies for alittle over $100 per, so that's the next significant payout. Erik is just plain busy, I gather he's doing some email with other amp guys and teaching full time. He still has the chokes AFAIK. I don't have them. I guess I need to ping him on them since possesion of them makes a difference in which design/schematic to use. I've recently become interested in the Rankin design shown here. Has a nice layout done by Don Garber, but doesn't use a choke there. There's several variations on the 6SN7 driven 2A3 also, some are very nice. I could end up building a faux Monndog, those are what the OPT I have came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Tom, talk to Jeff about the Baby O amplifier. Drop him a mail or perhaps he will post here. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 " tried my LS with a Scott integrated, spl meter on a tripod at 39 inches, about 18" off the carpeted floor. Cranked up some Santana on the Rega CDP, turned it up till the meter was bouncing around 100-106, measured the input voltage at the crossover with my newish Fluke meter, it was bouncing around at about 2.8 -- 3.2 volts." At a distance of a meter most people should get results within 5-10% of measurements as your room acoustics have minimal influence. "There's no way I'm going to buy into that being more than 1 or 2 watts. And it's loud, real loud. Backing up 9 or 10 feet does not make it hard to hear." God I would hope not - hard to hear would be really something!! On the other hand, depending on the furnishings in your room, building materials used for walls and floors and so on you can expect anything up to around a 6dB drop for each meter you go back. Therefore, if you sit 3 meters away the sound could easily drop from the 105 dB at one meter to 93 at your listening position. I am not saying it will drop as it is subject to your room as I mentioned. 93 dB is, of course, still pretty loud - I can happily listen to music in the mid 70's dB's at night. "i could hear it out on the street sidewalk or out by the pool just fine. With the doors closed. This was a 222-C, the volume knob was at a little more than one o'clock. " With doors and windows closed I can barely hear my stereo about the ambient noise when it is playing at over 90 dB at my listening position. I regard this as a good thing and it explains why I have never had a complaint from the neighbours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 "my newish Fluke meter, it was bouncing around at about 2.8 -- 3.2 volts." So, what is that 1.5watts average SPL? Let's say that there is 15db dynamic range in the music playing. That would be 7.5db up and down. The peaks would be at about 9-10 watts? Of course that would not take into account the sharp rise on a transient such as a rim shot or heavy kick on the base drum. As far as distance from the speaker degrading the amplitude excessively, since there are two speakers in play the additive effects of both negate the subtractive effects of distance. There are those who can go through life with a 1 watt amplifier and be quite happy as their tastes run toward chamber music at softer levels. for the rest of us, it requires two or more amps to achieve happiness. If you have but one amp for rock, jazz, blues and orchestra at 95db in an average listening room ie: 13x20 twenty watts should do with 100dbw+ speakers. For the acid freak at 110db, a modified arc welder would be more appropriate. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Shoe, a little primer on sound radiation wave patterns. They are like all types of radiated energy(light, radiation, sound.) They all follow an inverse square relationship once you are greater than half the largest dimension away from the source, acting a single point source. A speaker that is 104 dB at one accoustic watt at 1 meter(3 ft, actually 39+ inches) will start falling off as you move further away from the speaker at an exponential rate. At four feet, you are looking at roughly 60% of the accoustic volume for the primary wave. 8 ft.... 14% 12 ft... 6% 15 ft... 5% Things get a little complicated, because you have two speakers acting as point sources, rather than one, and they blend to reinforce the sound field. This becomes significant as you near the sweet spot, so you can about double the percent dB of the thumbrule chart above. You also have secondary, tertiary, etal waves from reflections that are additive. The rear wall generally is the most significant, so you can add between 5% to 10% additional energy in a far field listening environment. Nearfield may double these values, so you have to be careful not to sit too close to the rear wall if possible. The reflected energy will definitely skew your stereo field. Unless you have a very good room setup to begin with, it is much easier spending hundreds of dollars chasing a few more watts to sacrifice than spending thousands changing a room's poor accoustic behaviours. The Wrights have a reputation as being outstanding amps. If you can pick up a used set of Monos or 10s, you probably would be able to sell them for close to what you paid, if not breaking even. The 2A3s will break even, as long as you spend reasonably. If possible, borrow a set of tube amps locally and see what volume they will drive the RF7s to so you can reference actual experience as part of your decision process. Enjoy the hunt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 "...turned it up till the meter was bouncing around 100-106, measured the input voltage at the crossover with my newish Fluke meter, it was bouncing around at about 2.8 -- 3.2 volts. There's no way I'm going to buy into that being more than 1 or 2 watts." http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?mode=viewtopic&topicID=41257 Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I just think I'm using all of my power. I suppose that 110db might be all my ears can handle, and I'm attributing the "distortion" I'm hearing to clipping instead of my ears, which might just be telling me "it's too much". Seems hard to accept, especially with what we were seeing with the watt meters back in November. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe11 Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 Thanks everyone for your comments. I assume if Klipsch made very inefficient speakers we wouldn't be having such lively conversations regarding how low we can go on our power requirements. Last night when I was shooting out db levels for my listening, I was giving my best guess. Couldn't really break out the SPL meter and crank them up to 95db with the significant other sleeping just above. However, this morning, with said other cleared out I've been doing some testing and I'm finding that I was actually overshooting my levels by quite a bit. At my normal listening levels with Hendrix playing "Red House", my SPL was reading around 65-70. At what I would say is my personal highest listening level with the same material, about 85db was plenty high enough for me. Based on this information and Dean's previous comment, I believe that perhaps I could still use any of the amps I've mentioned. Honestly I suspect I've never registered much north of 90db. Out of concern for my hearing and what sounds good to me, I can't imagine how loud it would be in my room at 95db and up. ~shoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Shoe, Last year I purchased a pair of Wright 3.5 2A3 monoblocks. For my ears and taste in music, they have driven my Scalas and Khorns with ease. Unless you are really in a hurry, my suggestion would be to watch Audiogon for these amps, if you decide to purchase. Every couple of months they have a pair, ususally under two years old which will sell for $850 to $875. If you should decide you don't care for them, they are easy to get out of without taking a financial hit. I can't offer any help on your other Wright options. Haven't heard them. BTW, I think Geo Wright does offer a return if buyer is not pleased. Forget the restocking %, but I don't think he takes many amps back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe11 Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 DaddyDee, I check audiogon with regular frequency as I suspect most of us do, but I've had some issues with "Used" transactions in the past so I'm inclined to buy new. Additionally, I've read nothing other than great reviews of Mr. Wright's products and his support of them once purchased. One thing I'm not is in a hurry. As everyone knows just deciding/researching a new audio purchase is something to enjoy. Thanks for your comments. ~shoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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