wheelman Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ed i have no problem with your opinion's. That's why i am here to read and learn. In some cases monopoles just arent' practical and at best degrade the sound. IF placed improperly this can happen especially if your setup doesn't allow to place them properlly. Or the idiot that built the house before you didn't no squat ha hahahaha. Then you can get to much blast from them and it keeps your consentration astray from the dialog of a movie. Which is the most important part of a movie usually. Not always. Hell i started this thread just because i was happy to get klipsch surrounds and get rid of the cambridge soundworks. They are really blurry sounding. I hope these klipsch are not like that. IF they are i will have to get bookshelfs and put them on the sides on stands a couple feet in front of me. Heck i just may do that with the ss.1's. Have you checked out the hard rock cafe audio ausylum? I had a picture of it and that's the way they had their surrounds. I have heard dipoles this way and heard great results, but monopoles were usually either just right and left of the ear or behind not in front slitely that is. IF my room would allow it i would draw an imaginary circle and put my speakers monopoles around me. Perfect circular surround all at the same height. I have had surrounds to high and when it went from back to front their was this huge drop. Their was less of a drop if any with dipoles, but a trade off of them being not as accurate (blurry). It was very annoying at times for both kinds of speakers. I like to test my surrounds with the beginning of apocolypse now. My aunt and uncle took me to the theater when that came out back in the day. I was just a child and that movie stuck with me. I will always remember when the guy was on acid and looking at everything at night. Most kids are watching star wars i am watching apocolypse now and mad max. Of course i seen star wars eventually and close encounters of the third kind. Can't forget all the cheech and chong movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Good morning m00n First, heres a brief answer to your four questions. 1. It is true that RS-7s give you greater coverage at the expense of clarity and the honest sound that the DVD audio engineers anticipated. Properly hung center channel speakers will cover your sweet spot without the forced overkill on every sound that comes out of the side speakers. 2. That assumption would get a big yellow BS button from the late Paul W. Klipsch. .WDST diffuses sound to the point that your ears are flooded. The acuity of things approaching or fading away comes from the direct radiator part of a WDST speaker and across the full range of a monopole speaker. 3. You would lose nothing you would want to keep! The only effect you lose is the tricked-up illusion that you are immersed in sound all the time. Modern DVDs are engineered to flood any or all six discreet channels to create that immersed feeling any time it is appropriate and provide full range directionality as it is appropriate to the story line. 4. My opening paragraph should ease your mind about my working in a narrow listening space. It is easy for me to keep in mind that your room is only 10.5 feet wide because creating a quality sound system in a motorhome that is only 8 feet wide and 30 feet long is an even greater challenge because there are cabinets, bathroom and closets that further impede the sound. It was in this narrow space that I tried a pair of Klipsch WDST (which I bought from cluless) after gaining inspiration from the narrow minded posts of t2k. After trying a whole lot of configurations, I found that the WDST speakers worked best when set up as Avman has his KSP-S6s so one side of the bipole is headed directly toward the sweet spot and the other end is bouncing off the middle of the rear wall of the main bedroom area. The main listening area has center speakers mounted horizontally on both sides underneath the overhead cabinets. The driver and passenger seat area has a pull down double bed above it. The left main, center main, right main are mounted on the bottom of that deck which holds the overhead projector screen when the motorhome is parked. But, frankly, m00n, I think this motorhome treatment is far more severe than what is called for in your theater. On this thread, t2k wrote The WDST's mimic multiple monopole surrounds to give a diffuse surround effect. And, with all due respect to Keith, that simply isnt true. Monopoles send a direct wave to your ears and secondary waves that have bounced off the walls (etc.) arrive a fraction of a second later this provides both first hand timbre info and locates the sound by comparing the direct wave with the delayed reflections. WDST provides only delayed reflections for sounds above about 2 kHz. The original mission of the bipole, dipole, tripole family is to confuse the ear so that the weakness of the ProLogic era surround channels and home acoustic defects would not be as noticeable to the listener. It was a plug n play solution for an audio era that has come and, mercifully, gone as most new DVDs and multi-channel music recordings take full advantage of the full range discrete channels in 5.1 and 6.1 recordings. There are no 7.1 recordings, per se. 7.1 is created by the receiver splitting the rear channel into two identical rear feeds. That helps if you have a very wide room by putting two speakers with identical sound along the rear wall. With only ten feet to cover, m00n, putting two speakers on your rear wall may even be disadvantageous. In your situation, I would mount RC-7s horizontally across from each other and even with the middle row of your seating arrangement. Since you are using a middle seating strategy with side aisles, the double woofers on each side should create an angle of incidence that easily covers your sweet spot. I would then mount a third RC-7 on the back wall as your rear speaker. I would buy an additional RF-7 and mount it horizontally over your screen and angle it down so that the center of the speaker is aimed at the heads of the people in the second row. Your screen would have to be mounted a bit lower in this case. A bottom mounted center speaker with three rows of seating generally loses the high end to the second and third rows. High mounting allows fewer front row fat heads from obstructing the sound. But, if everyone in the front row is sufficiently narrow minded a bottom mounting may be overcome. (Hmmm, I hope you see a little humor there!) The ambiance supposedly created by making all side surround speakers reach your ears by reflecting off room surfaces is no longer necessary. If the movie calls for the music or explosive action to engulf you in sound, the sound mixer will send the appropriate sound to your rear array appropriately. You will get the entire ambience he intended and yet when isolated sounds like crickets, surprise voices or such need to be crisp and direct they will be with monopoles and they will be overly diffuse with WDST at least IMHO. Because of its existing speaker configuration, I believe that laying an RF-7 on its side with the midrange horn in the center point of the room, you will get a perfect center channel effect. The only reason to modify the motor board is so the cabinet looks centered in your room. Since upwards of 75% of the total sound on your DVD will come through the center channel thats where your best speaker should be. Having three RF-7s in your front array will be the best improvement you can make for your home theater bar none! Again, if your set of conditions were mine, I would mount a pair of SVS Ultras in the rear corner of your theater. That would give you a deep diving subwoofer that should cover the entire spectrum of bass available on a Dolby Digital DVD (121.5 dB at 20 Hz). It sounds like an ear splitter, but actually those high volume subwoofer blasts last for less than a second in the movies. It doesnt hurt your ears and adds a truck load of realism to the everyday crash, bam, booms of modern DVDs. Sadly, your stacked Klipsch subs wont reach that ideal. I know because I tried them too. It would seem that you could try out the surround potential of RC-7s by temporarily hooking the two you have up to the existing side surround locations. Granted they will sound differently but they will have far clearer speech (due to the tapered array) and will provide ample ambience. Test them by listening through an entire movie and not just a short snippet. It takes time for your brain to adjust to the inherent quality of monopole surrounds after being inundated with Bose-effect reflection based surrounds. Well, m00n, thats my quickie version. Maybe I will get time to email you some additional considerations. Enjoy your hard work in any event. -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 In all the DVDs I have watched.....I have hardly ever heard voices coming from the surrounds.....most voice is from center and then occasionaly goes to left and right as actor moves across screen..... Most sound from surrounds is Sound effects....bugs chirping, guns firing, helicopters, airplanes, tie fighters etc etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 mOOn and HornEd- i beleive the RC-7 is a much better match for RF-7's than the C-7 is for KLF-30's/20's. this is because the RC-7 is a 2-way design with IDENTICAL horn/tweeter to the RF-7. the problem i have with my nice-sounding C-7 is that it is a 2-way design and my KLF-30's are a THREE-way design,so they definitely DO NOT sound the same. i would much rather have to supplement the difference in bass(NOT the 'fish') between the RF-7 and RC-7 than to contend with the difference between a 2-way design and a 3-way design.so-what i'm getting at is i feel like the RC-7 is an acceptable center to go between a pair of RF-7's, and going from a RC-7 to a RF-7 as a center channel will NOT make nearly as significant a difference as going from a C-7 to a KLF-20/30. JMO- avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Avman, you are 100% correct! As I understand it, the KLF-C7 was a different design that was pressed into service as a Legend center rather than a speaker that was designed from scratch to match. Before building my Legend Theater, considerable time was spent in research... including phone calls to Klipsch. Sadly, the design engineers who did the Legend series were long gone from Klipsch when I made the inquiry... but Trey Cannon was invaluable in his assistance. It was my dissatisfaction with the KLF-C7 to meet the task of being the primary HT speaker that led to the technique for changing the motorboard to provide maximum benefit as a center. From there, it was just a natural thing to modify the three KLF-30 rear array to be idealized monopole surrounds. In the current set up, the room is circular and 30' in diameter. The front array is flat and the rear array speakers are attached to the curved walls at about 5'. Now for the KLF-C7 part... the timbre difference between KLF-30's and KLF-C7's is so great that I only use the KLF-C7's as Front Effects speakers... and at that they are excellent! They are mounted about 5' on either side of the KLF-30 Mains at the same height as the rear array. The RC-7's do very well as surround speakers because they are mounted horizontally... and that makes a wider array to cover more of the sweet spot. For example, if m00n would note the taper of the cones on his RC-7 and then extend a line from the taper of the left hand woofer to the other side of the room... and then extend a line from the taper of the right hand woofer to the other side of the room... he would be able to visualize the zone of ideal coverage. Doing the same to an RC-7 on the other side of the room and then a third RC-7 in the back of the room will create an overlapping area of complete rear array coverage that should include three rows of seating. Of course, the speakers should be set up with an SPL meter and a set-up disk (preferably Avia) to assure maximum advantage for the money and effort that went in to building such an ideal theater. Avman, you, moon and I, have the pleasure of having outstanding home theaters we share not only our info with our fellow Forum folk but also our desire to build something better and that means admitting where are shortcomings are. And, even if we get something just about perfect there is always that desire to go one more step. I am glad that Klipsch has a place for people like us people who want to chase my hero, Q-man, to the pinnacle of Klipsch Theatre Sound with the crisp honesty that only monopoles can fully achieve in light of current DVD technology.. HornEd PS: ygmn you are right of course voices seldom come out of the rear arrays but when they do they will be clear enough demand your attention. The RC-7s have a tapered array that shuts down one woofer when frequencies in the human vocal range are detected. The idea is to have more intelligible speech. But since, as you correctly pointed out, human voices are rarely heard from the rear array, both woofers are working full time and the full benefit of their horizontal spread over the sweet spot makes them ideal surround companions to the RF-7 in smaller width rooms. The ideal Klipsch Reference Theater IMHO would be to have seven R-7s with only the right and left mains mounted vertically. The R-7c center would be horizontal with a woofer tight by either side of the Tractrix Horn. The R-7s surrounds would also be horizontal with a woofer tight by each end and the Tractrix Horn in the center. That would create the closest timbre-match, create a tighter front center audio image and provide the widest surround coverage for a home theater sweet spot. Or so my experiments would indicate. Thanks, ygmn, for your timely concern. H.E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 Well i got my surrounds in today. They look great in white. I have them hooked up as my mains right now. And let me tell you they sound pretty good. They are going to be just fine. They are not blurry even using them in two channel stereo. Obviously some reflection but i am surprised at how well they sound for music as mains with my sub. I will listen like this to break them in a bit. Then i will hook them up and let yall know how they sound. Peace!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Moderator: We need another forum here titled " Motor-Home Theater". Ever seen a DVD marked "WARNING: This DVD mixed exclusively for monopoles", or "Sound Engineers recommend the use of direct radiator type speakers only with this DVD"? More BS (PWK) from ed. Your space m00n is probably the best example of where the WDST speakers will shine. Talk to someone that REALLY knows what they are talking about for advice(1-800-KLIPSCH). Are we to assume that the opposing RC-7's mounted as suggested above will magically project sound only, lets say, 9 feet without the much mouthed 'reflections'. The only way to avoid relection is to live on a cloud. Even PWK found that monopoles will leave gaps in a soundstage. Hence the 'Belle' Klipsch, and the passive derived center box he designed. The round room should suit you well ed. You think and talk in circles. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Another thing. I personally would use the RC-7 center. Think 'clarity'. Or you could use a center channel sub. Or like ed, you could use a large speaker and cut it at 80hZ. Brilliant. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 There is nothing I would like better Rick than to have you and Steve down for a fishing trip. At one time I averaged 200 days a year. I miss it. The pic you saw are the small ones. They're running over 40 pounds now. In all my years of fishing, I never ran into a bigger bull****ter (PWK) than ed. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 T2K/mOOn/and avman bass fishing!! WOOOHOOO!!! consider that an invitation accepted!! really that would be something i will look forward to! i wish i had more time to go more often, but let's work out the details,it will have to be on a long weekend for me. i hope that works for y'all. avman. and as prviously stated, i would use the RC-7 as a center channel w/your setup as well,mOOn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 And in his sagacity, t2k opined, "The only way to avoid relection is to live on a cloud." You got me, Keith, I thought you may be living in a cloud... but what is it you are trying to get "relected" to... I didn't know that you had been elected Forum Dictator. Checked out your reasoning in the round room... bit the good news is that your reasoning wasn't circular. Seems it tests out as a downward diffusion spiral. I know that you believe that big mains, little centers and side sprayers with mostly different woofers, tweeters and such, and all different cabinet volumes can find peace when ears are inundated with a mess of diffused sounds... and you can go right on "relections"... but upon reflection, maybe you can clear your head and edit your post so we can have a clue about what you really mean! Peace should not be diffused! -HornEd Thanks, Keith, I needed a good belly laugh today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 ---------------- On 3/10/2004 3:34:29 PM T2K wrote: Or like ed, you could use a large speaker and cut it at 80hZ. Brilliant. Keith ---------------- i will be the first to say that being able to roll the bass to the sub at 40Hz vs. 80Hz. is also a BIG part of the excellent performance i achieve in my ht room(thanks to my Sony STRDA777ES!). this is the only weakness of the RXV-3000 IMO-otherwise an excellent receiver! i can also independantly set the center and rears to as low as 40Hz, but i have them set now at 60Hz. when i get a KLF-20 and turn it into a center channel, i will set the center to 40Hz. as well. the wonderful 'sound sprayers' i have will stay at 60Hz. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 ---------------- On 3/10/2004 3:50:36 PM HornEd wrote: And in his sagacity, t2k opined, "The only way to avoid relection is to live on a cloud." You got me, Keith, I thought you may be living in a cloud... but what is it you are trying to get "relected" to... I didn't know that you had been elected Forum Dictator. Checked out your reasoning in the round room... bit the good news is that your reasoning wasn't circular. Seems it tests out as a downward diffusion spiral. I know that you believe that big mains, little centers and side sprayers with mostly different woofers, tweeters and such, and all different cabinet volumes can find peace when ears are inundated with a mess of diffused sounds... and you can go right on "relections"... but upon reflection, maybe you can clear your head and edit your post so we can have a clue about what you really mean! Peace should not be diffused! -HornEd Thanks, Keith, I needed a good belly laugh today! ---------------- I'm tired of responding to your elementary bull**** (PWK) ed. I truly think you need medication. I have learned one thing from you though. The are many people that are too lazy to try to learn for themselves, evidently they will believe anything. You remind me of Jim Jones. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 ---------------- On 3/10/2004 3:34:29 PM T2K wrote: Another thing. I personally would use the RC-7 center. Think 'clarity'. Or you could use a center channel sub. Or like ed, you could use a large speaker and cut it at 80hZ. Brilliant. Keith ---------------- Use the RC7 for my surrounds or put the RC7 back as my center channel? Not sure what your getting at there. Fishing would be very cool... If I'm ever heading that way I will definitly give you a call. Crack open some barly pop and drown a worm... Well, lure what ever is used down in that neck of the woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Thus spake the bipolar cowherd Keith, "I'm tired of responding to your elementary bull. Sorry, big t2k guy, I did not mean to challenge your educational level by pushing you up to elementary... no wonder youre tired! You think your tired... the rest of us are laughing so hard we need a break. So, do the Forum a favor, don't respond! -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 ---------------- On 3/10/2004 7:46:19 PM HornEd wrote: You think your tired... the rest of us are laughing so hard we need a break. So, do the Forum a favor, don't respond! -HornEd ---------------- Truth be told, I personally am not laughing at either of you. I'm snickering at the amusing burn bombs you BOTH are lobbing back and forth. All this entertainment right here from the comfort of my PC and best of all, it's free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 Well their starting to break in. I am getting a little more depth from the midrange. Can't wait to hook them up but i figure i should try and break them in first. Heck if i didn't it would take probally five years being surrounds hardly get any information. They look great in white. That's what my cambridge are too. Any buyers? 70 dollars shipped. Their nice for starting out or just for the invisible look. boy i am glad i didn't get bookshelfs so far. NOt full enough heck i don't know if these will flood the room enough. I want the tide to come in and bash me with sound. STill pretty good clearity for a tripole or whatever they are. I am ripping some Guns and roses(knocking on heaven's door) on them right now and they aren't to bad for what they are (surrounds being as mains at the moment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 BBB Without a doubt, that has got to be the funniest thing you have ever posted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripod Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 hee hee hee Ed, you have a typo in your post that is ripping on Keith for having a typo in his post. "bit the good news"? tee hee back to my mac & cheese carry on ---------------- On 3/10/2004 3:50:36 PM HornEd wrote: And in his sagacity, t2k opined, "The only way to avoid relection is to live on a cloud." You got me, Keith, I thought you may be living in a cloud... but what is it you are trying to get "relected" to... I didn't know that you had been elected Forum Dictator. Checked out your reasoning in the round room... bit the good news is that your reasoning wasn't circular. Seems it tests out as a downward diffusion spiral. I know that you believe that big mains, little centers and side sprayers with mostly different woofers, tweeters and such, and all different cabinet volumes can find peace when ears are inundated with a mess of diffused sounds... and you can go right on "relections"... but upon reflection, maybe you can clear your head and edit your post so we can have a clue about what you really mean! Peace should not be diffused! -HornEd Thanks, Keith, I needed a good belly laugh today! ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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