BBB Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Wow! I cant believe all you people know so much about this movie. I found out about it watchin da races. Of course I wont have time to see the movie during the NASCAR season but maybe later if the theater serves beer along with those nail pendants theyre selling. Ca-Ching$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 8:52:34 PM m00n wrote: Oh yeah that's right your a chef. Do you have any good side dish ideas? Our family suffers from the "same-ol same-ol" syndrom when it comes to side dishes. I'm thinking something in the lines of some kind of vegi casarole. (spelling?) ---------------- Brilliant segue. How do you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 "Fortunately for me, I happened to tune in to Carl Sagan's Cosmos around the same time I left home... which precipitated a flood of reading and viewing that helped turn me into the godless scientist I am today. If I can explain the universe with observation and theory, I will. If I can't, I hope someone else will keep on trying. That's the Reader's Digest ultra-condensed version, but it will have to do, since it's time to make dinner (perhaps some lamb and red wine? ...sorry, my irreverance is showing today)..." chuckears, Explain to me how it all began. Before the "Big Bang" science tries to ignore the time before the begining. "Moon---Gibson's father is a Holocaust denier and a loony heretical psuedo-Catholic who literally thinks he's more Catholic than the Pope. Gibson has many of the same goofball ideas, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." I think that Mel Gibson's father said (to paraphrase) " the six million Jews killed in the concentration camps was exagerated." That is, it does not account for the Gypsies, homosexuals and mentally retarded who were also sent to the camps and are a part of that figure. If we are to learn the true lession of the Holocaust we must remember all who perished not just the majority. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 3dzapper, It is extremely difficult to explain what occurred before the Big Bang, because the force of the Explosion (and what an explosion it was) wiped out the "fingerprints" of whatever came before. The current physical laws of the universe were written in the first tiny fractions of an instant. To ask where the matter and energy came from is not dissimilar to asking where a supposed creator came from... you might be able to quote scripture on the subject, but anything postulated about the origin of a creator is not testable. Science and fundamental religion ("God said it, I believe it, and that settles it...") are at odds with each other on basic approaches to thinking about the universe, and even with definitions of terms. In this sort of religious mind-set, a "fact" is words written in stone, irrefutable, it will never change, and nothing you can say is going to sway my belief. To science, a "fact" is the best answer or conclusion we have, based on the information we currently have. A good scientist can always think of a way in which his "facts" can be tested, and proven wrong. That is the very essence of the scientific method; the attempt to prove ideas or hypotheses INCORRECT. The more these attempts fail, and the more the evidence comes down on the side of the hypothesis, the more the hypothesis is supported. The body of knowledge and work that essays to DESCRIBE the supposition is called "theory". The "theory" of gravity currently includes the data from observations of its effects, complicated mathematical equations about space-time, and some brilliant descriptions (by Einstein, if my memory serves) about matter causing an indenture in the fabric of the space-time continuum, affecting other objects in a way similar to that of a bowling ball on a tablecloth pulled tight. There is still much controversy and discussion as to exactly how the process of gravity works, and all of this is the "theory" of gravity. There is no doubt that gravity exists... you can see it working every day. The healthy debate about exactly HOW it works is the core of scientific thought; just because the processes are not known completely does not mean that gravity is not a fact of our existence. Evolution is another example of a fact of science that is not yet completely understood; that life has evolved is considered a fact. The body of knowledge that attempts to describe the processes by which life has evolved is called the "theory of evolution". This is where a lot of fundemantalists try to confuse the general public... most scientist understand that life evolves... you can see it in archeology, micro-biology, genetics, sociology, hematology, probably a bunch of other -ologies I'm too tired to come up with. To claim that evolution is "just a theory" is a gross and tiresome misunderstanding of the processes and terms that scientists use. This is all not to say that scientists themselves are never wrong... but the process of the scientific method has been proven to work over time; and this is the fundamental difference between the mindset of scientist and the religious right... scientists will eventually come around, and actually throw away a (sometimes long-held) notion if it is proven wrong. The fundamentalists will put their hands over their ears and go "ya-ya-ya-ya-ya..." to avoid hearing that they might have to amend their beliefs, which rely ultimately on faith, and not observation or logic. Whew.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Wheelman says--"IF you feel guilt then your (sic) guilty of something." Now you get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 So you deny the usefulness of guilt to inform one of sin? How can we have conscience without guilt? Do you also then deny the concept of sin itself and the need to atone for wrongdoing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 no/we can't that i know of/no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Those who believe in a close, personal God of Creation... one that reads our minds and knows everything we do... have reason to feel guilty, I suppose. The concept that the being who was powerful enough to create pretty much everything has that much interest in what you do, say, and think, can be a good impetus for doing what this being wants you to do (unfortunately, this is sometimes used to justify some pretty horrendous acts against others). The further thought that this same being loved us enough to become mortal, then undergo the pain and suffering that led to crucifixion, is a great emotional trigger for people to respond to; I understand it very well, having grown up with it. If you believe this way, then yes, guilt is probably necessary for salvation. If you do not, what motivates your morality? What reason do you have to "act right", when there is no fear of eternal retribution? For myself, the knowledge of the preciousness of life... the fact that there is nobody else like you in the Cosmos... that we all share a common bond through the amazing processes that brought us here. The notion that humans are conscious of themselves, and that we are each of us UNIQUE. There is a wonder to the ongoing description of the universe, the matter and energy that make up everything, and how it has changed over time to become something that is aware of itself... The more we seek to understand ourselves, the more we begin to understand the universe itself. I see a lot more inhumanity derived from the concept that "our God is the only true God", and all the hatred and killing it has caused. These notions are the vestiges of territoriality and the tendency to blindly follow the group leader, traits that allowed us to survive in groups early in our history, and even before we became the species that we are today. It is only when we realize that we are all the same species, derived from a common source, now globally dependent upon each other for our very survival, that war and suffering will begin to come to an end. I fear that day may never come, and it is very sad... our current situation with a group of people willing to die for their beliefs, and our own willingness to send our children to places that our blindly-followed leader tells us is responsible (even if it is not)... our "us-or-them", panicked fight-or-flight responses, based on our brutal (but ironically necessary) past are going to have to change, if we want peace for our children. I fear it may never come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I'm with you, Chuck! Great posts. I'm wondering this morning what Sagan's death experience was like. Not how he passed, but how he perceived the process. He was a great story teller, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 fini, My wife likes to make fun of Carl Sagan (that voice and the inflections that so many find distracting)... she unfortunately never bothered to listen to what he was saying. I love the way he made complex scientific ideas about physics and cosmology not only understandable, but incredibly poetic and inspiring. I don't know if I would have eventually come to the understanding I have today if I had not tuned in to Cosmos... As for death, I like the was Lester Burnham's character saw it via Kevin Spacey's narration in American Beauty; the last bit with him talking about the incredible details (like his grandmother's hands) while his entire life is flashing before him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Chuck, Unfortunately, those who do not believe in a personal God, often live better, more moral lives than those who claim Him. But it would be a large generality to paint all Christians this way. Or to claim that the unbelieving are all rotten and no good. Great responses Tom! And you even went to Catholic schools didn't you? Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/14/2004 5:06:23 PM Marvel wrote: Chuck, Unfortunately, those who do not believe in a personal God, often live better, more moral lives than those who claim Him. But it would be a large generality to paint all Christians this way. Or to claim that the unbelieving are all rotten and no good. Marvel ---------------- Marvel, That is why I referred specifically to fundamentalists; and I would certainly not claim that all are the way I described... there are many different levels of belief, and the willingness to act upon them. It is those that deal in all-or-nothing, black-and-white, every word in the Bible is literally true-isms that are the antithesis of scientific thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grateful11 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Like I've told others, if someone needs to reaffirm their faith there plenty to read in that book called, "The Holy Bible". I have also elected not to see this movie. One of the reasons is Mel stands to make somewhere around $350,000,000.00 off of it. Grateful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 " One of the reasons is Mel stands to make somewhere around $350,000,000.00 off of it. " My bet is that a large portion of whatever he makes on this film will go to one (or more) of his various religious charities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 A friend of mine in Atlanta got to meet with "Mel" last August, when he was inviting certain folks to come see the rough cut of the movie. At that point he didn't yet have a distributor. He indicated that he really only wanted to make his own money back. He was making the movie for other reasons. Although quite graphic, there is plenty of evidence relating to crucifixions, that indicate it wasn't portrayed worse than it actually was. He did do some different things, and adds some human touches to it. One of the things he did as well, was have the actual hands pierced with the nails instead of the wrists. This is what the scriptures say, but in reality (historically speaking), they put the nails through the wrists so it wouldn't pull out from the weight. Plus, doing that cut right through a nerve than would cause excruciating pain with any movement. There are some at the Christian college where I work who have seen the movie and felt they couldn't recommend it. Others thought it very good and very powerful. I haven't yet, but intend to. I feel like I have been able to see it without the intensity, just from what respected friends hae told me. And my daughter, who is majoring in film. She has pretty well dissected it. I think it will be interesting next year for the Oscars. None of the Hollywood crowd wanted to see it do well and now it is earning gobs of money. And Tom Brennan's complaints of the costuming notwithstanding, the filming itself is outstanding. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 8:29:47 PM TBrennan wrote: One is better off salvation-wise to be a heathen, agnostic or atheist who follows the dictates of conscience than to be a heretic. ---------------- Hey now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 14, 2004 Author Share Posted March 14, 2004 Well, I guess I was hoping too much to see this be a discussion of the movie itself, rather than a religious debate. *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Welcome to the forum. It's just like Usenet, but shinier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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