Marvel Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Griff, So what about the movie? The cinematography? Excellent. Is it accurate? Not necessarily, but it doesn't really contradict scripture either. That shouldn't be a religious debate, but that is the reference people use for it. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 The Big Bang makes about as much sense as a print shop exploding and making a book. The movie was excellent. Many confuse guilt with shame. The guilt has been removed. Sagan's journey was probably the same as Voltaire's. 11 documents total in our possession revealing that Socrates even existed. Yeshua: over 27,000. Original autographs written within the life times of those who witnessed the events. This is bigger than people care to admit. So, who was he? Liar, lunatic, or God? One of three. Pick one. If I wasn't so tired, I would tell you about moon dust, bees and flowers, and a hundred other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I haven't seen it. I loved "The Last Temptation," though. Scorcese's a genius, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 12:10:09 AM fini wrote: I haven't seen it. I loved "The Last Temptation," though. Scorcese's a genius, IMHO. ---------------- I thought The Last Temptation was excellent. The Passion really puts you in direct touch with the suffering he was submitted to. Whether you subscribe to Christian ideals or not, it really gives you a clear vision of how the Romans went about punishing criminals. They really didn't screw around. The most touching scene was when Mary finally reached his side on the march to Golgotha - I really choked up on that one. "Jesus, I'm here..." I thought it rather humorous, OTOH, that "Satan" looked an awful lot like Marilyn Manson without the hair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 DeanG - "The Big Bang makes about as much sense as a print shop exploding and making a book." I like that. I agree with that. However, if you look closely enough at the fabric of reality, down into the fermions, and the boson's they use to talk to each other... ... the whole Universe makes no sense whatsoever - at least to us. My wife wants to see the movie, I'm sort of dragging my feet. I don't enjoy watching stories about other people suffering, whether it's a movie like this, or a TV movie about a family whose child was abducted, or stories about war, pestilence, plague, famin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I saw the movie last night. I thought it was great. I think it was acurate to the 7 stages of the cross that the catholics follow. I think he did a good job showing the politics of the day too. I read a book about 10 years ago. It was the Roman account of the the crusifiction, and the roman records of Pilots political career after that event. He was called in front of Ceasar in 60ish AD, when the christians were becomeing a problem to the Empire to answer why he let the Religious Leaders make his decision. He was stripped of his titles, land, everything he worked for his carreer. Very Interesting. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 What book is this and where did you get it? I still deal with ignorant people who hold to the idea that Jesus never existed. Any extra-biblical documentation is more artillery in my arsenal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Under the general precept that "Know thine enemy" is always wise, I'd suggest perusing this website: The Jesus Puzzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 You have to remember, it's not so much an intellectual issue, as it is a moral one. You can throw a library of evidence at someone, but in the end, they will have to deal with the question of how The God Thing impacts their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 2:44:05 PM Ray Garrison wrote: Under the general precept that "Know thine enemy" is always wise, I'd suggest perusing this website: The Jesus Puzzle ---------------- I'm very familiar with this turkey. He proclaims loudly that all the extra-biblical sources merely suggest that the Romans and the Jews were both told about Christ by the Christians themselves, and therefore they offered brief and unassuming commentary about him. The logical fallacy of this hypothesis? People running around claiming they knew a guy that died on a cross and then rose from the dead and being willing to die for that claim (i.e. Peter, James) don't typically do so when their whole story is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelie Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 aren't gibson's views - that is the story represented in the movie - based on the vision of a 19th century nun? So, no real time accounts of what happened. just the visionary explanation that occurred approximatle 1800 years after the passion occurred. Forgot to add this before: I know very very little about the movie or Gibson but wanted ask those who have seen it, did the Latin and Aramaic help or hurt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 5:24:24 PM steelie wrote: aren't gibson's views - that is the story represented in the movie - based on the vision of a 19th century nun? So, no real time accounts of what happened. just the visionary explanation that occurred approximatle 1800 years after the passion occurred. Forgot to add this before: I know very very little about the movie or Gibson but wanted ask those who have seen it, did the Latin and Aramaic help or hurt? ---------------- It didn't bother me - but then, subtitles don't ever bother me. I read 360 words per minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Grif -- that is a big problem isn't it? If it's not true, then not only Jesus, but the Apostles themselves all allowed themselves to be martyred for what they knew was a lie. So, you have this Super Rabbi and his followers all teaching the highest of morals, ethics, values, etc -- instantly reduced to either madmen or deceivers. If this is true, then to what end? At the garden all of disciples fled, so fulfilling the prophecy, "The Shepherd will be struck and the sheep will be scattered". No one was at the cross save Mary and John -- everyone else was dealing with IBS. A little over a month later these same people were placing their lives at great risk by preaching the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. What changed them? Clearly it was the resurrection. Some have postulated that the disciples were victims of post hyponitic suggestion by Christ, or mass hallucination. Again however, it makes Christ part of a great deception, which flies in the face of his life and teachings. Bowing to pressure from the Jewish Community, Gibson removed the line in the movie during the fiasco in the courtyard where someone in the crowd shouts, "His blood be on us and our children forever!" What a shame. What people fail to realize is that things often meant for evil, God makes good. This curse is in fact the greatest blessing God ever showered down on the Jews. Without His blood, there is no forgiveness for anyone. Jew and Gentile are made One through the cross. Someone once asked C.S. Lewis why he was a Christian (as opposed to some other religion or philosophy). He said, "Christianity has those quirky things in it that real life has." When Pilate asked the crowd who he should release, Barabbas or Jesus -- the crowd shouted, "Give us Barabbas!". Now, back then, the Jews did not have a first and last name. What you did was take your first name, and link it to the first name of your father. The word "bar" was used to do the linkage. So, Jesus would have been, "Jesus-bar-Joseph". The word "bar" meant "son of". Now, look at the name "Barabbas". We have the word "bar", and the word, "abbas". Abba was Aramaic for father. Actually, the closest thing we have is the Italian "Papa", which is like our "dad". Is God a god of irony or what? Literally, the shout was, "Give us the son of the father". In the Scriptures, during one of the times that Jesus fell down while carrying the cross, Jesus saw some women crying. He said, "Weep not for me, but for yourselves and your children." You read it in the gospel, and you have no idea what he's talking about. Read it in history, and you realize that Jesus was looking 30 years down the road, and saw Titus leading the Roman Army to Jerusalem. The Romans laid siege on the city for about a year, and it got so bad that people resorted to eating their infants so they wouldn't starve to death. When the Romans went in, Josephus records that there was so much blood that it was pouring out of the front gates of the city. In 1st Peter you can read a fisherman's description of nuclear fission -- "the earth and everything in it shall be burnt up, and the very elements will be dissolved." Peter had never seen a firecracker go off, but yet he comes up with this one. In the Koine Greek, the word "dissolved" means "disband". Quite the imagination he had. The Bible is full of stuff like this. Then of course we have the full scope of apologetics, and I could rattle off enough stuff to tie the athiests up in knots for years. For now, I would just be happy if they could offer up a decent explanation for the lack of transitional fossil evidence, and symbiotic relationships (things that need each other to exist, but separated by 10 million years on their goofy time scales). Oh yeah, then there's the Moon dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 All the answers are in the bible. You take away from it or add to it. It's your big eternal mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 7:13:44 PM wheelman wrote: All the answers are in the bible. You take away from it or add to it. It's your big eternal mistake. ---------------- I think the key is plumbing the depths of the book to reach an understanding of what those answers are - for those of us with eternally hungry minds that want to know more than just how to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Not wishing to be banned, I have deleted the post that occupied this spot for a bout 30 minutes... it was a good one, full of responses to and opinions of the non-scientific fundemantalist folks that cause me to shake my head... for furthing reading (while listening to music through your Klipsch ) , refer to Douglas J. Futuyma's excellent "Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution"... Back to the music... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 9:49:07 PM Griffinator wrote: ---------------- On 3/15/2004 7:13:44 PM wheelman wrote: All the answers are in the bible. You take away from it or add to it. It's your big eternal mistake. ---------------- I think the key is plumbing the depths of the book to reach an understanding of what those answers are - for those of us with eternally hungry minds that want to know more than just how to live. ---------------- You seek knowledge to have wisdom. That's good. Hunger is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 "...non-scientific fundemantalist folks that cause me to shake my head..." Typical mistakes. 1) Assuming we are all "Fundamentalists", and 2) assuming we are all unscientific. I don't know why you thought you would be banned for your post, unless you resorted to some kind of verbal assault. Most adults can handle healthy debate without freaking out. You should have left your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 DeanG, I do not think you are all fundamentalists... that is why I have been careful to describe the specific mindset to which I am referring. My intent is not to be offensive; I seek to provide an alternative way of thought to that which I am seeing once again propogated as the Truth... 1) There is a bill before my state legislature seeking to give equal time in the science classroom to "intelligent design"... this is preposterous. There is no scientific basis for the notion, and those that wish it to be taught are not interested in the furtherance of scientific thought, or of teaching their children to think; only in indoctrination. Let them send their kids to private religious schools, if that is what they want. 2) This guy who had to have a court order forcing him to remove the ten commandments from a government building... what part of the first amendment do these people find so confusing? This notion that we are a "Christian nation" (and while I am not belittling Christ's teachings, the concepts are extraordinary, and we would do well as a nation to actually hold to the spirit of them)... it is exclusive to other religious beliefs, and it feaks me out that the current chief administrator of justice in the US is an old tyme religion guy (and embarassing that he is from my state). 3) The problems we are facing on a global scale can only be solved if we work together globally, and if we raise some scientists who are capable of rational, analytical thought. These kids being taught that the world is going to end in their lifetime, in horrific conditions akin to (or worse than) those that were experienced in Europe during World War II, are not going to care about life on Earth, or helping to solve our problems. The "us-vs.-them" ideas that our current rulers are exploiting in the light of the September 2001 terrorist attacks are alienating us from a large chunk of the rest of the world. If we do not start working to solve our problems, we are going to end up closed off from each other, with the most powerful hording and killing for the few remaining resources we are going to have left. I understand that there are those that view our lives here as merely a transitory state; a test for the life we will lead after we die. I think it is all we've got, and we sure as hell better make the best of it... Again, I am not implying that everyone who is a Christian, or believes in various degrees of spirituality, has this philosophy... but when I read the anti-scientific notions like some of the comments made earlier in this thread, it tends to polarize my own opinions, especially given the current (in my opinion) backwards path we are taking in our country... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 A man walking along a California beach was deep in prayer. Suddenly the sky clouded above his head and, in a booming voice, the Lord said, "Because you have TRIED to be faithful to me in all ways, I will grant you one wish." The man said, "Build a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive over anytime I want." The Lord said, "Your request is very materialistic. Think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking. The supports required to reach the bottom of the Pacific! The concrete and steel it would take! It will nearly exhaust several natural resources. I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of something that would honor and glorify me." The man thought about it for a long time. Finally he said, "Lord, I wish that I could understand my wife. I want to know how she feels inside, what she's thinking when she gives me the silent treatment, why she cries, what she means when she says 'nothing is wrong' and how I can make a woman truly happy." The Lord replied, "You want two lanes or four on that bridge?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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