Interconnects

[AnalOg]

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On 3/26/2004 6:25:48 PM TBrennan wrote:

Tom----You have tubes in your ears? At your age?

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I said TO my ears not IN my ears!

Tom

[AnalOg]

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On 3/26/2004 5:47:36 PM dbflash wrote:

ssh,

I have used so many IC's in the last couple of years.

I really don't want to get into this.

I have not done any tests. I just listen to them for 6 months or so and then read something or talk to someone and the next thing I know I have changed something out in my system.

I started with Radio Shaq IC's and Home Depot speaker cable when I first bought my first pair of Klipsch (KLF20s). I hated my system. I tried to sell it. When no one would buy it I started playing around.

I changed my speaker wire to Audioquest Type 4. I couldn't believe the difference. When I was using Home Depot cable I could listen to half a CD and then my ears would hurt so bad I'd have to turn it off. I added AQ and I could listen to my system for hours. I then bought AQ CV4 and biwired my system.

I then changed my Rat Shaq IC to a pair of AQ Corals which cleaned up my system.

I then bought a pair of Heresy's, tube preamp and amp. The AQ sounded good, but kinda flat.

I changed out the Heresy's to a pair of Lascalas. I then bought Alpha Core Mico Purl IC's and Alpha Core AG1 speaker wire. That made a big difference. Sounded alive. Drums sounded like drums. Vocals were too clean.

I then bought a pair of Cornwalls.

I then was given a deal on IC's. I bought a pair of AQ Viper and Nordost Red Dawn's. The AQ were good, but sounded alittle dark. Bass was there, but the highs kinda sounded flat.

The Nordost on the other hand was was so brittle sounding. I almost was almost getting ear fatigue. I then hooked up the Nordust between my turner and preamp. I tuned between stations and let them burn in 24/7 for a week. Put them back into my system and was floored with the difference. Sound stage and depth. Could not believe it was my system.

I then decided that if the Red Dawns made that big of difference what would the SPM's sound like. I called my dealer and he didn't have any in stock, but could cut me a deal on a pair of demo Quattro Fil. I bought them and used the Quattro's between my CD player and Preamp. I rotated the Red Dawns between my preamp and amps.

Better sound. I know what people were talking about "Air" around the music. My sound stage was there but deeper. Its like my wall was moved back.

Last Friday I replaced the the Red Dawns with another pair of Quattro's. It just tuned everything in.

I will stay with this for awhile. I am waiting on a new amp to be delivered. Will they still sound good? I don't know. I am hoping.

Please do not go out and buy a pair of Quattros on my account. If you are happy with the upgrade you just made stay with what you have. Use them for at least 6 months and then decide what you don't like.

The best upgrade I made and noticed as soon as I did it was change out my AC outlets (FIM880), but I don't even what to go there.

Also remember that 75% of this board will tell your that cables and speaker wire is all smoke and mirrors. The cable companies are just ripping off people. Please believe that and don't be stupid like me. There is no difference in wire. I know I couldn't tell the difference in a blind listening test. I don't want to turn this into a flame war. I think everyone is right in what they say.

Have a good weekend. I am out of here. I'm sure this thread will be gone Monday morning when I check the board again and I will have been banned.

Danny

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dbflash,

How long are your Red Dawns and do you want to sell them? Seriously!

Tom

[sell]

As far as good quality cables go, I've heard many and can tell you that you've made a good decision by upgrading your old Monster cables. Monsteris a decent cable, but offers nothing above what you paid. I worked for Future Shop and can tell you that the mark up value is 50%. Besides the fact that they're highly over rated and over priced, they haven't changed their design and still use the same technology they've been using for over 20 years. That's the reason you can find them at just about any store you go to. That's besides, the point. If you're looking for an exceptional cable try KimberKable. Their whole line of cables are excellent. Music is extremely detailed but most importantly, airy and gives you a large soundstage. Just by upgrading my old cables to Kimberkable, i was able to fill in the space between my speakers with "full" sound. The speakers seemed to dissapear from the room, giving a "wall" of sound as apose to pin-point location from the speakers. Of the Kimberkable line-up, the "Hero" is the best value for the dollar ($200 Canadian). Up from that is the "Silverstreak"($350 Can.)And obviously you can go up from there, but i neither have the desire or budget to even try those. Also, keep auditioning different styles of cables. A good dealer should be willing to let you audition cables for several days, otherwise you'll be making a blind purchase. That's how I stumbled upon the Kimberkable..different cables sound differently on different systems...so i'd try those....Good luck with that.

[whell]

My stuff is mostly Monster Cable. I have tried Homegrown Audio's Silver Lace. I, too, noticed a drop off in bass. Swapped between the Silver and my Monsters a few times and still couldn't shake the impression that the low end was rolled off.

Wouldn't mind trying Nordost Blues. Have heard good things.

Also, FWIW, I NEVER buy "high end" cables new. So called Audiophiles change out cables faster than I change my underwear, so I always can find a decent deal on used cables.

[chuckears]

What I find hard to believe is that all of us had nothing better to do on a Friday night than engage in this discussion

[krustyoldsarge]

Rewired the internals of my KG-4's with Oehlbach Silverstream and thought I got a little better definition out of it.

[Daddy Dee]

This morning I changed out the Huffman silver (between preamp and amps) and put the Tributaries in. Huffman's are still linking the CD and pre. The Tributaries just sound more balanced to my ears. The bass sounds right.

I'm curious now to put the Grover Huffman silvers with a vintage Scott 222-D. There are times with this amp as with my 299-C that the bottom end is a little overdone. It is mildly disconcerting to be thinking of tuning a system with interconnects. I know the whatever sounds good to your own ears is good. Still...

Another thought about different interconnects and discussions of sound (and speakers for that matter) is the factor of room acoustics. What one reports is not only as a subjective experience of their own ears, but in a setting that is their's as well. If the room is different, the sound will be different, too. How much a factor? Well, beat me with a stick if I know.

[stan krajewski]

Someone, somewhere must have done a scientific "double blindfold" study on this. It should not be that hard to do.

Unless this is like coffee and only the few can tell the difference. But even that aspect can be rooted out.

Personally I think I hear the difference but I will be the first to admit its all in my head and not in my ears.

This is not a flame. I , like many others here, are just trying to learn and don't want to waste hard earned money.

[Daddy Dee]

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On 3/27/2004 8:24:36 AM stan krajewski wrote:

Someone, somewhere must have done a scientific "double blindfold" study on this. It should not be that hard to do.

Unless this is like coffee and only the few can tell the difference. But even that aspect can be rooted out.

Personally I think I hear the difference but I will be the first to admit its all in my head and not in my ears.

This is not a flame. I , like many others here, are just trying to learn and don't want to waste hard earned money.

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Yep, I've actually read a thread or two where some testing was done. Not DB... and not with interconnects, but speaker wire. Now, I don't know if I've ever discerned a difference with speaker wire. Interconnects seem to make more difference and it should be noted that "difference" and "better" are not always the same thing. I returned a pair of "high dollar" interconnects that I thought sounded different but not better. (disclaimer: what is high dollar to me would not be considered high dollar by audiophiles) Now that is one cool cable manufacturer, one that will take them back if the customer is not satisfied. When someone thinks enough of their product to take it back, that is saying something.

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[Shock-Late]

With my old NAD CD player, i could hear ENORMOUS differences between different interconnects. With my new (better) Kenwood player, i don't hear them as much. Must be than some electronics are more sensitive to the cables you use with them. A matter of output/input impedance matching I'd say.

[chuckears]

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On 3/27/2004 8:24:36 AM stan krajewski wrote:

Someone, somewhere must have done a scientific "double blindfold" study on this. It should not be that hard to do.

Unless this is like coffee and only the few can tell the difference. But even that aspect can be rooted out.

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Dude, I have 3 or 4 different varieties of coffee (not flavored) in my pantry right now, and I can tell the difference between each and every one of them.

I am amazed this was even brought up as an applicable analogy, but (ironically) I am very picky about both audio and my coffee...

[Griffinator]

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On 3/26/2004 5:47:36 PM dbflash wrote:

I have not done any tests. I just listen to them for 6 months or so and then read something or talk to someone and the next thing I know I have changed something out in my system.

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Pssst. Have you checked out XLO's Limited Series interconnects - you know, the ones they hand-make to order? I can get you a nice price on them. (well, relative to MSRP, anyway...)

[Clipped and Shorn]

I don't understand how one even gets to the point where changing the speaker connect wires becomes a priority to bother with, unless it is just the most economically feasible thing to be playing with when there seems nothing else to do.

I am always either upgrading or changing out things like the speakers themselves (now there is a difference!), pre amps, or cartridges or changing out or adding parts or tube rolling in tube amps to be worrying about speaker cables.

I can see putting in line conditioners and solving ground loop issues before I am going to be worrying about speaker wire or $900 AC plugs. As a result I have never gotten even close to the point of changing speaker wire. Since I use at least 60 feet of perfectly competant braided copper speaker wire in my tri-amp Altec system and some more in my Cornwall system, changing out wire would be a big bother anyway. The issues regarding speaker wire shouldn't be anymore complex than the issues of feed lines going to a transmitting antenna.

I have upgraded the other interconnects with carefully constructed diy cables which are physically superior to most of the ones you can buy in order to make solid clean connections between the other components. Other than that, I do not understand why someone would not be tweaking and changing out all the other equipment including speakers in the quest for impovement. More bang for the buck.

It is hard enough to dicipher actual physical based problems through one's subjectivity in order to overcome eiher denial or imaginary impressions let alone issues without a clearly understood physical basis. I would also have a hard time believing wire differences could compete with 1) one's particular listening mood or psychological state at the moment of appraisal, 2) the variations in particular recordings and recording media, and 3) synesthetic suggestability (eg. silver wire sounds too bright etc.). 4) the weather and relative humidity in the room, 5) the phase of the moon, or 6) the Sunspot cycle.

As long as impedance issues are correct ......

-K6

I am not saying that every little thing cannot ultimately have some kind of effect, I am saying that it seems there are so many other things that would come before one gets to speaker wire in the quest to make dramatic improvements in one's audio system.

[TBrennan]

You pro-wire guys argue only by assertion. Your opinions of what happens in sighted situations has little meaning except to you. Many an enthusiast of hi-fi (and of wine) has been tripped up in DB tests. At least my opinion is informed by experience in such testing.

I find it amusing that in this day and age and in a culture so dependant on science that many take a medievil "if she weighs the same as a duck she's a witch" attitude towards audio.

[Griffinator]

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On 3/27/2004 2:13:57 PM TBrennan wrote:

You pro-wire guys argue only by assertion. Your opinions of what happens in sighted situations has little meaning except to you. Many an enthusiast of hi-fi (and of wine) has been tripped up in DB tests. At least my opinion is informed by experience in such testing.

I find it amusing that in this day and age and in a culture so dependant on science that many take a medievil "if she weighs the same as a duck she's a witch" attitude towards audio.

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Why is it such a big deal that these guys want to "waste" (as you put it) their money on expensive interconnects?

Let them enjoy themselves. Some would sneer at you for your choice of amplifiers and components. Would you like having them badger you every chance they got?

[TBrennan]

Griffin---It's something to talk about. What do you want to talk about?

Besides this ain't about preference, it's about belief systems and psuedo-science. It's not about what sounds better but whether or not there is a difference in the first place.

Are you a dealer?

[Griffinator]

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On 3/27/2004 2:29:06 PM TBrennan wrote:

Griffin---It's something to talk about. What do you want to talk about?

Besides this ain't about preference, it's about belief systems and psuedo-science. It's not about what sounds better but whether or not there is a difference in the first place.

Are you a dealer?

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I'm not saying it's about preference.

They're not here trying to prosletyze you, either.

Yes, I'm a dealer. However, I've stated on this forum what my position is on interconnects.

I believe that investing a modest amount of money in solid interconnects and speaker wire is a completely intelligent thing to do.

If someone wants to go out and spend $10K on a 6-foot speaker cable, more power to 'em. I wouldn't do it, but whatever they feel compelled to do in the pursuit of their audio Nirvana, whether rooted in science or not, is their choice. I'm not going to bash them for it.

PS: Ask some of the people on this forum that have bought cables from me about the advice I've given them. I talked some of them out of buying more expensive offerings in my own line, that I didn't feel were justified for the application.

[Clipped and Shorn]

Whether we should care if other people make their decisions based on reality is ultimately perhaps a political issue and the assumption that other people's decisions do not effect us, again, may be open to some discussion. Lately, as I observe people making their decisions based on the clear manipulations of power politics, I am beginning to think that other people's decisions do effect me and I care whether their decisions are based on reality because I live in the same reality and have to suffer the consequences. This is why the "informed" have decided not to "take it anymore".

-K6

like, are we supposed to care if people choose to eat the poison that some corporate entity feeds them and their children? hello, I think so.

do we (society) ultimately care if someone buys snake oil? hmmmm

[Griffinator]

I guess that's where you've got to decide where personal liberty comes into play.

I, for one, believe that if you want to go out and smoke crack, and kill yourself doing so, that's your business. If you choose to do something stupid like get behind the wheel of a car when you're strung out, that's when society needs to step in and let you have it.

No one is being harmed by people buying outlandishly priced interconnects. People are being harmed every day by chemical poisons being sold in grocery stores everywhere (petrochemical-based food dyes, Nutrasweet, BHT, to name a few) and society isn't lifting a finger to stop that trade.

Call me when health hazards are no longer being sold as food additives, and we can talk about whether people should be allowed to buy silver speaker wire.

[TBrennan]

Clipped---Well said. This goes far beyond whether or not somebody "likes" different patchcords and into what kind of people we are and what kind of a society we want to live in.

But to be less general it shows whether we see this hobby as a technology we wish to understand and use or whether we think it exists free of cause and effect, as something magical. In which case rather than seek to work it ourselves we simply turn our will (and our money) over to our favorite witch-doctor or shaman and divest ourselves of the tiresome burden of thinking for ourselves.

And if our favorite shaman absolves us of the burden to make sense we can blithely glide through life as a fool and put the burden on those who won't abide our foolish behavior; they're the ones at fault, they should be more open-minded, how small-minded of them to not recognize the genius of our behavior.

Yeah.