speakerlab

[richieb]

What does everyone think of Speakerlab K-Horns. A rip-off, an improvement or a company playing of the Klipsch name. Thanks

Rich

[3dzapper]

Rich,

If Phillis Dillar got plastic surgury to look like Kathy Ireland, would it be as good?

Rick

[WMcD]

Not an improvement. OTOH there was a demand for speaker kits and they filled a market nitch. BTW they made other kits for smaller, direct radiator bass speakers.

The downside was that they cut corners. Bruce Edgar had some harsh words about the bass driver.

The use of the letter K got them into trademark trouble even though the patents had expired.

Gil

[formica]

I agree with the above opinions, and not because this is a Klipsch forum, but the due to the fact that Speakerlab was intended as a less expensive alternative to the Klipschorn. Costs were reduced by selling it unassembled and downgrading some of its components (although some early ones used a similar Atlas midrange and EV tweeter drivers). It was a poor mans Klipschorn.

It is unlike the JBL Hartsfield which took the Klipsch folded horn design and improved on it by using premium parts throughout and creating a truly premium speaker system.

Later...

Rob

[HDBRbuilder]

Formica, I hope you were meaning to say "... unlike the EV PATRICIAN....", instead of ..."unlike the JBL Hartsfield...". Because the Hartsfield was not the SAME as the K-horn (although its concept in its original form was obviously K-horn derived), whereas the Patrician used an upsized version of the K-horn bass bin.

[sheltie dave]

I helped a friend assemble a set of Speakerlab cornerhorns back in 1975. It took us three high school freshmen three days to get it done, and then we spent a week listening to them. Dan's folks had a set of Khorns upstairs, and there was no comparison. The difference was so large we tore the Speakerlabs apart to figure out what we did wrong, only to find out that we did everything perfect.

Dan's dad was a Caterpillar engineer, and he came downstairs to help us figure out our mistakes, and introduced us to the Garbage In - Garbage Out concept. The four errors that Senior pointed out were

1) The drivers, woofers, and horns were all cheaper, and did not match the specs they needed to hit. Same with the crossover, and the enclosure build would have half-inch cheap plywood rather than 3/4 inch baltic birch.

2) The bass bin expansion ratios were off, and had obtrusive baffling that blocked, muffled, or had too much flare rate.

3) The midrange horn was a narrow, wider flare mouth to allow the tweeter horn to be abutted, creating a shallow, narrow dispersion pattern that also created a left and right speaker. If you did not get your left and right speakers correct, you would not have a proper intersecting stereo field at your sweet spot.(If they were too far apart, they wouldn't even meet!)

4) The tweeter was a vertical tweeter, which did not create the proper stereo dispersion in the horizontal plane to mate well with the horizontal midrange dispersion pattern.

We ended up with a four foot sweet spot that was about 80% as good as the half room sweet spot the "same" actual Khorns were producing upstairs. Any one who states their Speakerlabs are as good as, or can kick Klipsch Khorn ***, is somewhat delusional. Kinda like the chutzpah of the EBay seller sticking the Klipsch emblems on his Speakerlabs, even though they walk all over Khorns Yet another example of a person with a year round bus pass for one of those seats!

[formica]

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On 3/29/2004 7:26:19 AM HDBRbuilder wrote:

Formica, I hope you were meaning to say "... unlike the EV PATRICIAN....", instead of ..."unlike the JBL Hartsfield...". Because the Hartsfield was not the SAME as the K-horn (although its concept in its original form was obviously K-horn derived), whereas the Patrician used an upsized version of the K-horn bass bin.

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Hind sight, that would have been a much better comparison... or perhaps I should have emphasised the Hartsfield had a Klipschorn "INSPIRED" bass bin. Guess my heart has a small soft spot for the JBL (not that the Patrician isn't up to par)

Can't let one slip on you, now can i... I stand corrected.

Rob

PS: Sheltie: from what I have been told, all klipschorns used 1/2" plywood for their internal construction and 3/4" only for the face and tailboard.

[drewb]

I am sitting here listening to my 1983 Speakerlab khorn's. They sound as good as any khorn I have heard. I realize Speakerlab made many mistakes with their poor man's khorn. But by 1983 the bass bin and midrange were identical to the Klipsch. They offered the same Atlas midrange driver (non-solder version) and both the t35 and t350 EV tweeters.

The weakness I had were:

I purchased their version of the tweeter which was an EV with a "constant directivity" horn. It had a horrible downward slope in effeciency as the frequency went up and was optimized for the lower frequencies. I fixed this with an ebay purchase of the t35 horn, using my magnets and diaphrams.

They never got close to a decent crossover design. I am using homebuilt ALK's. Al's crossovers have made them detailed and coherent, like any good khorn.

Despite Edgar's blasting them I find the woofer is fairly close to the Klipsch offering. I have verified this by listening and doing a "Hornresp" speaker model of each. Both show similar response to horn loading. They are a better match than many of the JBL, etc. speakers many have made the mistake of using.

If I were building today I would purchase the Klipsch woofer and 400 mid horn (only $49.00 per this forum). The Atlas mid driver can be found, as the EV t35 can be on Ebay. I would build Al's excellent crossovers of course.

My point is that these can be made into decent horns and can still be built by the DIY'r.

A recent thread in this forum concluded that there never was a legal problem between Klipsch and Speakerlab. Nice myth but I am sure PWK would have concluded it was better to let them go as a "wanaa be" rather than give them some credibilty by harrassing them.

[sheltie dave]

Drew, if they finally improved the quality of the bass bin cuts, I'll cede that point to you. What you have done is a transplant of Klipsch into the Speakerlab, and replacing the less than competent crossover with an ALK network(great choice!) You still will have difficulty with the dispersion pattern of the tophat. I think you will agree the geometric placement of the mid and tweeter side by side, and the dimensional change in the mid, force you into some position compromises to surmount the dispersion pattern limits.

Unless you got the 'labs for a great price, you end up spending the same amount as you would for just buying Khorns in the first place...but half the fun is figuring out what and how the things work, and getting them to that point, finding deals along the way. Congrats on "getting there!"

[drewb]

I can't comment on Speakerlabs's cuts since I built mine with very exact cut and fit. Yes, I aggree that I have pushed mine toward the true Klipsch design. My comments are that they can be true clones. Cost and time I have much more into them than they are worth. Cost wise I am far ahead.

The jury is not in on the tweeter placement. Even Al thinks the side placement may be better. I am still trying to decide. Mine are mounted on the ouside corner of each speaker (they are mirror images). The soundstage seems real without any hotspots. I am going to use my audio generator and SPL meter to get an emperical result.

I have the fiberglass mid horn. As far as I can tell they took an exact cast of the Klipsch fiberglass version. Unless you are referring to the tophat being a couple of inches taller they are identical.

I'll report on this as I get the real world data.

[D-MAN]

I would rather own a Klipschorn than a Speakerlab K.

I have to say that the finest bass from any speaker that I ever heard came out of Speakerlab K's in the late 70's (NOT KLIPSCH!)...that ain't to say that I would want a K instead of a Klipschorn, but they are virtually identical at the bass end of things...

Speakerlab made their own drivers, except for the EV T35 tweeter, which, of course is also used by Klipsch. The crossover was not the same calibre in my opinion as the Klipschorn. The midrange horn was cast metal and therefore had a tendency to ring. I would love to get ahold of a couple of the old Speakerlab 15" horn drivers.

There were 2 styles offered of the K, one having a top riser (like Klipschorns) and the other, less expensive version had a flush mount to the bass bin.

The Speakerlab K bass bin is a knockoff of the Klipschorn.

I would take one (or two) in a New York minute, especially if it was factory built. The still available plans are excellent, especially for the first time builder (I bought mine for $5.00 in 1980, now thier $25.00, if I heard right).

My best friend of over 30 years worked there in its heyday, and I really don't want to get yelled at by him from mentioning the rumor that there was some sort of legal run-in between Klipsch and Speakerlab. He just starts yelling that (and I quote): "There was NEVER any lawsuit or legal stuff between Klipsch and Speakerlab!"...

For DIY, I would use the Speakerlab plans and buy all of the guts from Klipsch, and an pair of ALK crossovers from Al.

DM

[sheltie dave]

D-man et al, the 'lab blueprints were off by between a 1/16 and 1/4 inch, often on critical intersections. With the five to ten true Khorn experts we have on the forum, why not use an exact set of build prints? You already are using the drivers, horns, woofers, and ALK crossover. It sounds so much like a duck the last thing you want to do is have it moo rather than quack!

When I was working out in Spokane at Thanksgiving, I worked with one of the old Speakerlab employees. His brother was a corporate lawyer for them, and PWK always took an active interest in their crossover networks, according to the demo foreman. Lawsuits no, but a very active interest in making sure the back engineering did not exactly duplicate Khorns - most definitely yes. Speakerlab had zero costs involved in developing their cornerhorns, and definitely "borrowed" every single facet of their speaker from Klipsch. Saying otherwise is blatantly false. As Andy noted, they did not pay a cent to Klipsch for licensing.

[WMcD]

I may have dammed the SK with faint praise. My brother in law has a pair and they are very good sounding.

I built a pair of near (sorta) clones from scratch based on the Speakerlab plans and even bent plywood for the midrange. I'm not gonna roll over and say the factory units are that much better.

I do cringe a bit at the SKs. It would have been nice if they made an actual reproduction. The cross over is not the same, the structure departs from PWK's in the top cabinet. The "standard" tweeter was not the T-35. Flake board in place of plywood in some areas.

I still question the bass driver.

It is like my rants in other products. It would take 5% more in material cost to do the job right. Evidently that goes into profit; and we get a substandard product.

OTOH, there is much good to be said of the SK. The bass bin is substantially the same. I do question the driver.

The mid horn, fiberglass or aluminum, is pretty close. The driver is an Atlas. Perhaps without some tweeks by PWK.

You could get an EV tweeter at extra cost.

The upside is that the SK had many of the advantages inherent with the three way corner horn. These can't be overstated.

OTOH, there was none of PWK's meticulous QC or grace of physical design and implementation. Let me add, product support, too.

The SK's do a good job. The design which it mimic dictates such.

I do think there was the "do it yourself" mentality to the SK. Much like Heathkits in electronics. Given the time involved, Heathkits were not cost effective. But you got a very good product with top rate engineering, learned a lot, and had some pride of building it yourself.

It seems that there was a reversal in PWK's position in home building over the years. Early on he seems to have encouraged it. Perhaps this encouraged commercial competion too. Then he shut down on it. All we home builders could find was the ilk of Speakerlab; for good or bad.

But the SK falls well short of Heathkit standards for a good product, and well short of PWK's standards. Again, that is not to say that the sound coming out is not very impressive. You just have to wonder how money is best spent.

Gil

[drewb]

If there were dimensional errors I didn't find them when I built mine in 1983. I have never heard another builder who said there were errors.

The only other plans I have seen were done on in metric by a German fellow. They are available here: http://baseportal.de/cgi-bin/baseportal.pl?htx=/Data/exdreamaudio/bauplaene&db=bauplaene&cmd=list&range=0,20&cmd=all&Id=10 and http://home.datacomm.ch/nschroeder/Bauplane.htm.

If I were to build on today I would use these plans as a check but using the Speakerlab plans as "known good" dimensionally.

[sheltie dave]

Drew, though I didn't say there were dimensional errors, I did write it. There were dimensional errors. Fit quality was poor. Plywood used was poor. From what it sounds like, you used 'lab prints to build your own, with your cuts. We built a factory set, which was subcontracted to one of four companies during the time my friend bought his kit. They did not go together well, or sound great. One plywood section that was fractured at receipt broke while we were assembling that board.

Again, this was a turnkey lab kit, not a total homebrew. There is a big difference in quality - it is very hit or miss with the turnkey kits. And if your miter saw skills are like two of my brothers, remind me never to buy yours I would have more confidence in a good total homebrew!

[drewb]

My point is that the blueprints are dimensionally accurate. Since you mentioned it I will put in my $0.02 worth on cut and fit.

The Klipsch cornerhorn requires accuracies that cannot be achieved on most home equipment with normal skills. Most home table saws are out of square somewhat. Even 1/16" over 3' will ruin the fit of a Klipsch. Even if you know how to correctly square a table saw most home units will not hold it long enough to cut all the pieces (guess how I know that). The bevel cuts need to be +-1/2 of a degree. Again this is difficult with most home tools and hard to accurately measure.

Unlike many cabinetry projects there are not just a few critical dimension you can put a * by. All of the internal fit dimensions are critical. They all add up to introduce the 1/4" critial junction errors you reported. You cannot "trim to fit". An adjusment on one piece just messes up the alignment.

Many good cabinet makers would be like a fish out of water with this. Critical compound angles and multiple part fits just are not part of ordinary Cabinetry.

I am not suprised that Speakerlab delivered low quality pieces. I would imagine that they contracted out to get the cutting done with common plywood. With normal tolerances and methods you cannot achieve what is required. I am sure that Klipsch on the other hand kept the cuts internal and used jigs and fixtures to assure accuracy.

I point this out not to discourage anyone from attempting to build a cornerhorn, just in the interest of information.

[D-MAN]

I'm with Drewb,

I am unaware of any reports of dimensional errors concering the Speakerlab K plans from reliable sources. Several revisions were made to the plans from time to time, such as the top and bottoms extending over the front change, etc. However, it remains that there are not any dimensional errors that can be confirmed...

DM

[D-MAN]

I'll go one more on this subject:

I judge that from some of the remarks above, nobody has seriously listened to a well-set up pair of Speakerlab K's.

I stand by the EV T-35 tweeter as being STOCK in the K's.

I am talking late 70's - early 80's. Don't know after that - BUT I BOUGHT A PAIR OF EV-T35's FROM SPEAKERLAB for my clones and frankly, Klipsch and SPeakerlab could have BOTH done better.

1) Klipsch's patent expired in 1965. ZERO PATENT INFRINGEMENT.

2) the letter (or model) "K" used by Speakerlab was NOT TRADEMARKED by Klipch. NO TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. Did Klipsch also file suit against Kelloggs who market a product called "Special K"?

3) cloning the Klipschorn filled a market gap; immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It was perfectly legal to backward engineer a product in order to gain information to help your own. It's done everyday and it's called COMPETITION.

DM

[sheltie dave]

D-Man, do you have any stock in Speakerlab? If you spend somewhere around $600 in 1975(memory gets foggy back that far,) you expected value - good material, fit, and cut. Speakerlab didn't meet any of these criteria. The three of us that built the project turned out to be a full tenured mechanical engineer teaching at MIT, a successful electrical engineer, and a nuclear engineer who tears down buildings. Dads that supervised us were a director of R&D at Caterpillar and a tenured physics professor at Bradley University - not chopped liver.

When we could not get a good build the first time around, we spent a week taking one bass bin back apart, with Dan Fogelberg's pop helping us. We called Speakerlab, and they would not help us at all. Meeting a stone wall there, we threw our hands up and called Klipsch.

We got a lot of help, first with them sending up both a set of diagrams AND a set of exact paper cutouts with angles written on the edges, and a week later Dan's dad got a call from PWK. Paul was so bothered that we couldn't get things straight he decided to send up a set of all the internal constructs so we would be assured everything would be spot on, all for costs. A week later, two huge boxes arrived at my friend's house at 10 am.

Klipsch had sent two complete bass bins with K33s installed, gratis. We put all back together, and 29 years later this set of mutants live in Arizona.

We listened to the 'labs, and then the mutants, for as many hours as Dan's folks would allow every day we could. Actuall Khorns were upstairs, so we conducted endless hours of comparisons without a care in the world, as long as we were not breaking up with current girlfriend or being dumped.

Soundwise, the 'labs are a poor man's cousin, IMHO. They may come close, but the real proof is years of experience. You may slap a set of Klipsch badges on a set of 'labs, but that still only brings 'lab prices. Klipsch is the only speaker manufacturer that spent more money on chickenfeed than advertising until the mid '70s. Speakerlab's ad budget was bigger than Klipschs'!

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but PWK had 114 patents issued, a majority involving speaker design. Multiple Khorn patents did not expire for a decade after 'lab started their clone program, hence PWK's active oversight. His intellectual property created his wealth, and Speakerlab never compensated him a dime from what I have read, for skating the edge of theft. There is a reason why Edgar and Klipsch both detest Speakerlab.

I will always remember the day that PWK stopped at my friend's house a year later to check how "his" speakers were working out. We were callow high school sophomores at the time, and we all still realized we were in the presence of a genius and great person. He was the first adult figure outside of teachers and parents who stood in front of us and said we would amount to something if we continued on the same course for another ten years.

We have been blowing speakers up for twenty five years now, and we are still waiting to get the amounting in the black, and real Khorns in the house Paul was a towering leader during his life, and the number of companies that try to chivvy on his carraige are a reflection of the true quality he created.

[CaptnBob]

Neat!