dgb Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I'm getting a suspicion that my Nak TA-2A is losing power on it's left channel, and at 15 years old, it's not surprising. I'm looking to get a Pure Class A or an A/AB up to at least 50 watts. I've been trying to get a Threshold or Forte amp on the cheap, and it's probably going to be a long process. How do people feel about Carver's amps? I notice some seem to go for rather large sums and others pretty cheap. I've been pretty happy with my Carver Pre. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 As with all things in life, everyone has their preferences. For me Carver is not one of them. I've tried Bob Carver's amps going all the way back to the Phase Linear 400 only to have someone (who was familiar with my system but didn't know anything was changed) comment "somethings wrong". Even his amps that were supposed to be voiced to sound like a tube amp (the 1.5 was it?) were in my system no more than 5 minutes before pulling them. I still have a Carver 'Digital Time Lens' which was supposed to make CD's sound like LP. The damn thing is terrible at low-level resolution, adds too much noise (as do their power amps). And what's really funny, is it made LP's sound better! Nice looking stuff. I always wanted to like it but his products always seemed to fall short (for me). Your Nak amp is (IMHO) a much better amp than the Carver preamp is a preamp. As a side note, Paul Klipsch is probably the only person to publish a white paper parody (The Ultimate LSH Loudspeaker) in the Journal Of The Audio Engineering Society that specifically poked fun at some really dumb statements Bob Carver had previously made in Audio magazine regarding speaker efficiency. Reprinted in the Dope From Hope Newsletters Vol. 14 No 1 April 1974 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 There's a old Pioneer Class A amp (the M2?) thats supposed to sound pretty good & you can usually get one for around $500. I believe Forum member Colin has one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flason Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I'm currently using an Onkyo Integra M504 amp with the 304 pre-amp. I really like this combo with my Klipschorns. I have had HK730, McIntosh 6100, Pioneer SX1000, Denon 3600, but all pale in comparison, IMO, to the Onkyo. I wish my Scott 299 had the headroom the Onkyo has, not to mention the big green vue meters, else I would never have swapped it out. Out of the system that is, it will never leave the fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 What exactly is the concept behind these "magnetic field" amps of Carvers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 the old carver amps were based upon a switching power supply that basically took current from the wall upon demand.... it allowed bob carver to get alot of power from small enclosures (M-400 for example).... i used several different carver amps ..... M400t and the TFM-25.... the M400t tended to be noisy with my klipsch KLF-30's.... the TFM-25 was a much better amplifier..... i used that amp before trying a tube amp for awhile.... and now i am using a carver professional ZR1000 digital amplifier...(no connection to the old carver products - bob carver sold the name to the phoenix gold corporation in 1998).... with speakers other than klipsch, some of the old carvers work very well.... i would try to stay with the latest ones that he produced though.... the TFM-XX series were some of the best.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn58 Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I have both threshold ,carvar and phace linear crown ect. The thershold amp are real real nice amps some of the best soild state. I have a carver mt500 a ok amp but no way near the quilty of the threshold. i use it to power some samll near feild studio monitors for that avrage sound. I still have a Phase linear 700 and 400 lying around. I use them when I want to have that 70's 80's rock power punch for live pa use, nothing sound like a flame linear for rock,N roll.just about avrey band and pa co. used them back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 "I'm getting a suspicion that my Nak TA-2A is losing power on it's left channel, and at 15 years old, it's not surprising." A generic amplifier schematic: http://sound.westhost.com/p3a-f1.gif Replace C1 and C3. C3 is the part most missed when looking for your problem. It is also the most likely suspect. A $2 fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 dgb, I used a Carver M200t with my Fortes for about ten years; the sound was good, but not great. I would recommend a used McCormack DNA .5 Deluxe... I had its bigger brother, the DNA1 Deluxe, for a couple of years, and the sound was incredible. It helped bring performances to my listening room like the Carver never could. The horns loved the quality power, and the cone woofer finally showed me what it was capable of when I finally sent it the power it needed to move a lot of air. You can find these units used on ebay or audiogon almost all the time; there is a DNA .5 that just went up on ebay with the last 24 hours with a Buy-It-Now of $750... actually about $50 more expensive than these have been going for, but if I were shopping for a 2-channel amp to go with my Fortes, I would jump on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi, I'm "jt1stcav"'s little bro that has the Aragon 2004 MK II amp. I used to have a Carver PM700 pro amp that I used with my DIY 18" Klipsch sub and a 15" DIY sub. That amp had loads of power for both, had great control over both, and sounded very good. In fact, while running a test tone through the Klipsch sub, the voice coil started smelling like burning muffins!! LOL Needless to say, that sub was shot. Anyway..... I used to have a Carver TFM-35x that I powered a pair of Maggie MGLR-1's, a pair of Infinity Kappa 6's, and a couple pairs of AR towers (AR11 and AR9). That amp never gave me any problems, always sounded good, and also had plenty of power for any speaker. This amp was also supposed to have that "tube" sound, but I didn't think so. I am still using an old M400t running at 4 ohms for my DIY dipole subs. You can read all about it here... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14179 For this, the amp is perfect! Since these subs have a combined efficiency of about 106dB @ 1 watt, this amp never works hard or gets hot. However, I don't think I would ever consider using it for my main speakers. As long as I have ever listened to this amp, it has always had a quiet but audiable "buzz" coming through the tweeters. That's why I now use it for sub duties only. You can not here it at all coming from the subs, even with your face right in front of the cones! But if you're looking for an excellent main channels amp, I would suggest going with an older Aragon amp like my 2004 MK II. It may only be rated at 100 watts p/c @ 8 ohms, but it's one of the best sounding amps I have ever heard. And believe me, I have heard lots and lots of them ranging from $2k McIntosh's up to $10k Mark Levinson mono blocks. Of course, I'm 100% sure those amps have a hell of a lot more slam than mine, but I'm only running mine crossed over at 90Hz and up to a pair of Klipsch KG 3.2's. It is a dual mono design and you can hear a difference between it and a regualr stereo amp. Much better detail, soundstaging, imaging, and clearity can be had with this amp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm probably looking to spend no more than $1000 on a preamp/amp combo, and am leaning towards getting a higher power Nak unit (TA4A or PA5) and using the difference to get a middle of the road SACD unit. The wife is quitting her rather well paying Alumni Development job to go back to working with Special Ed kids in about a month, so I've gotta keep the output on electronics low for a while. Just when you start to get a nice amount of disposable income, the wife goes through the "having to do something meaninful with my life" phase. I suppose that's more important than really good electronics. I suppose.... (Funny how trying to get people with more money than they know what to do wit to give their money to a university with more money than it knows what to do with pays more (like lots and lots and lots more) than teaching special ed kids... but I digress) Anywho, any help in this price range would be great. How's the old Luxman and Marantz amps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Whoa, whoa, whoa! First, I think that your 15 year old amplifier is worth fixing. It will certainly cost more to get something of less quality. Using constant dollars, I know that an amplifier like my 48-pound, vintage, solid-state, Class A, 22-watt (60-watt max.), Pioneer M-22 dual-monoblock amplifier cost something like $750 in the 70s, so it SHOULD be about $2100 in constant dollars today. Except that markets arent constant. My trading mantra is that markets must move. Today the amplifiers are more powerful sure, but their specs arent appreciably better for a few grand. A low powered Threshold amplifier with the same specs should cost about two grand, except they dont they cost a whole heck of a lot more. Four times the power now yes, but at ten times the price. Second: Besides, you dont want solid-state horsepower for ultra-sensitive big ole horns. At normal (75db) listening levels in a typical room, you are probably using about 0.000366 of a watt at your listening seat, with musical peaks 15dB higher, you are using about one watt! So you can see it is the first watt that matters. At 150 bucks, The Pioneer is a dual-monoblock amplifier cheap on the eBay market, built like a tank and sounds like the superlative Pass X250 concrete monster amplifier, when it is NOT clipping. (The Pass puts out 75-watts of Class A power before switching into A/B mode, it is capable of not only 500 watts into a 4-ohm load, but also 1000 watts into a 2-ohm load!) The Pioneer M-22 however, has plentiful negative feedback to keep THD low. You do NOT want plentiful negative feedback with ultra-sensitive big ole horns. They wear out your ears after a while. Same thing with the Carver amplifiers. I lived with one for years with my walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossovers. The Craver combo was powerful, but fatiguing in the long run. My tubes sounded much better more like natural music. Stop thinking big American car engine about amplifiers. Think small, but accurate, Japanese-style low powered motors. I would look for used vintage solid-state harmon/kardon receivers, which sound amazing with classic Klipsch corner Khorns for a few measly ($5 to $50) bucks or a refurbished vintage integrated tube amplifier, like the kind that our own frequent forum poster, NOSvalues, works on, for a few hundred. Coupled with an actively powered, solid-state deep bass sub-woofer, an vintage integrated tube amplifier makes a SUPERB companion to big ole horns; because, as you can see from the example of their extreme sensitivity above: HORNS LOVE TUBES. Trust me, the wife will love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 colin, "...At normal (75db) listening levels in a typical room..." Normal listening levels? 75dB? uh, okay... different strokes for different folks... According to my RS SPL meter, unweighted, my "normal" listening levels (just sitting and listening, not trying to really move stuff) are in the 95 to 105dB level. When I really want to crank something, that goes up to about 115dB. When I'm just watching CNN on the TeeVee maybe 70/75dB is typical... Point is if you were recommending an amp for me based on your normal habits, I'd probably be unhappy. Likewise, if I suggested an amp for you based on my listening preferences, I'd be recommending something that was overkill, overbuilt and probably overpriced for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 ---------------- On 4/22/2004 9:53:47 AM Ray Garrison wrote: Point is if you were recommending an amp for me based on your normal habits, I'd probably be unhappy. Likewise, if I suggested an amp for you based on my listening preferences, I'd be recommending something that was overkill, overbuilt and probably overpriced for you. ---------------- I sure would love to hear my B&K amp on a pair of KHorns. I do know that it sounds awesome with my RF-7s. I've had people tell me that thing was overkill (at 200watts/channel), but I heard a marked difference when I went from a Denon AVR3802 reciever. The sound seemed to "open up" much more with better clarity and detail than I recalled. To bad that thing is to big and heavy to lug onto a flight to take to Indianoplis in June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 The Ta-2a has a good little amp, no doubt, but I can hear things getting a little "cluttered" when it's running loud passages (probably near 100 dB, I like it loud ). For quiet passages or at low volume it sounds terrific, very warm. That's why I'm looking first for a higher power Nak STASIS amp. There is another problem with the receiver too, the pre-amp selector doesn't work anymore, not even with the remote, so it'll probably be well over $100 to fix and could buy a whole unit for under $200. We do have a very good repair shop in town, but they aren't cheap. I'm not so sure about tubes with my listening preferences. I listen pretty much exclusively to rock and from what I hear tubes can get pretty salty to maintain. Well, I can appreciate both little jap engines (have a 2.0L turbo WRX) but I must say, I occasionally miss the low end grunt of my old Ram Air 400ci or the MoPar 383. Both are great, in different ways. I must say I DONT miss getting 5mpg. ---------------- On 4/22/2004 9:40:26 AM Colin wrote: Whoa, whoa, whoa! First, I think that your 15 year old amplifier is worth fixing. It will certainly cost more to get something of less quality. Using constant dollars, I know that an amplifier like my 48-pound, vintage, solid-state, Class A, 22-watt (60-watt max.), Pioneer M-22 dual-monoblock amplifier cost something like $750 in the 70s, so it SHOULD be about $2100 in constant dollars today. Except that markets aren’t constant. My trading mantra is that markets must move. Today the amplifiers are more powerful sure, but their specs aren’t appreciably better for a few grand. A low powered Threshold amplifier with the same specs should cost about two grand, except they don’t – they cost a whole heck of a lot more. Four times the power now yes, but at ten times the price. Second: Besides, you don’t want solid-state horsepower for ultra-sensitive big ole horns. At normal (75db) listening levels in a typical room, you are probably using about 0.000366 of a watt at your listening seat, with musical peaks 15dB higher, you are using about one watt! So you can see it is the first watt that matters. At 150 bucks, The Pioneer is a dual-monoblock amplifier cheap on the eBay market, built like a tank and sounds like the superlative Pass X250 concrete monster amplifier, when it is NOT clipping. (The Pass puts out 75-watts of Class A power before switching into A/B mode, it is capable of not only 500 watts into a 4-ohm load, but also 1000 watts into a 2-ohm load!) The Pioneer M-22 however, has plentiful negative feedback to keep THD low. You do NOT want plentiful negative feedback with ultra-sensitive big ole horns. They wear out your ears after a while. Same thing with the Carver amplifiers. I lived with one for years with my walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossovers. The Craver combo was powerful, but fatiguing in the long run. My tubes sounded much better – more like natural music. Stop thinking big American car engine about amplifiers. Think small, but accurate, Japanese-style low powered motors. I would look for used vintage solid-state harmon/kardon receivers, which sound amazing with classic Klipsch corner Khorns for a few measly ($5 to $50) bucks or a refurbished vintage integrated tube amplifier, like the kind that our own frequent forum poster, NOSvalues, works on, for a few hundred. Coupled with an actively powered, solid-state deep bass sub-woofer, an vintage integrated tube amplifier makes a SUPERB companion to big ole horns; because, as you can see from the example of their extreme sensitivity above: HORNS LOVE TUBES. Trust me, the wife will love it. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 ......"How's the old Luxman"...... Well,..... I thought you'd never ask. I use two Luxman M-117's bridged at 440wpc. Very warm, tube sounding power amps and Crystal. Drive four CW's with headroom to slam the bottom end. (but, will bi-amp the tops with tubes soon) I love 'em. 54lbs per channel. They look very plain ...until you press the "on" button. Then, they look wonderful. Have not listened to Lux preamps. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 ---------------- On 4/22/2004 9:40:26 AM Colin wrote: . Second: Besides, you dont want solid-state horsepower for ultra-sensitive big ole horns. At normal (75db) listening levels in a typical room, you are probably using about 0.000366 of a watt at your listening seat, with musical peaks 15dB higher, you are using about one watt! So you can see it is the first watt that matters. ---------------- Yes, the horn midrange and tweeter on his Fortes do not need much power, and will do well with tubes or really quality SS... But that big fat cone woofer (and associated passive radiator).... They want power, and I never knew what mine was capable of with my little Carver amp... it took the solid 185-watts from a quality SS amp like the McCormack DNA1 to move enough air to open my eyes and ears, and give me a glimpse of high-end audiophilia. This does not hold true for Klipsch's fully horn-loaded speakers... they will bloom with much less power. And as far as spending is concerned, it really pays in the long run to go for more than you (or the Significant Other) thinks is necessary... I am already looking for a 5-channel equivalent of the McCormack that I sold a year ago... the Rotel has the power, but not the quality to bring the performance into my house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 The low impedance of woofers in super-sensitive big ole horns doesnt need a lot of watts. It is NOT the 185 watts that makes the bass sound better. It is the ability to put more watts current into the lower impedances than makes the bass better. If a flea-powered tube amplifier could double its meager watts into 4-ohms and then double them again into 2-ohms, it could also control the woofer cone and make some wonderful bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted April 23, 2004 Author Share Posted April 23, 2004 Well, I'm going to spend within my means. I just can't afford to drop 5Gs on stereo equipment. Well, I can, but I'd probably be divorced. But I like finding good value, I think the NAK stasis are great values, the 50 watts of the TA-2A is outstanding at everything but ear bleed levels. And I like ear bleed levels. I figure if I double the power (TA-4A or PA-5 are 100w) all should be good in the world. But I'm not ruling out anything else. Don't know much about McCormack, I'll take a look at them. ---------------- And as far as spending is concerned, it really pays in the long run to go for more than you (or the Significant Other) thinks is necessary... I am already looking for a 5-channel equivalent of the McCormack that I sold a year ago... the Rotel has the power, but not the quality to bring the performance into my house. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Going from 50 to 100 watts will only get you a slight gain in volume, about 3db. I run my Forte's on a 55wpc sonic frontiers tube amp. A/B class. I normaly listen with an average db of 85-90 with peaks to 100 or so at a distance of about 8 feet from the speakers. No problem going higher unless I want a divorce because the wife can't hear her tv in the next room I watched the output on a scope for a while to make sure I wasn't clipping the signals (none) so do your homework before you buy another amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.